Quote from WyzDM

They don't need a buff. They need a rework from the bottom up.

There are too many "rule breakers" or differences from operations from the other 2 empires. Yeah, I know that's what it's supposed to be. But that's what's causing problems. They have the following

- units that give non melee or projectile damage with a base attack (airs)
- units that spawn shit for fucking free (treatures)
- random-ass unit combinations allowed anywhere on the map at little cost
- fucking invincibility spells
- unit possession
- unit cloning
- unit freezing
- 4 second queue time units. FOUR SECONDS. btw they can be miners anytime lol
- unit teleportation
- no giant or heavy attack or tank unit
- no defensive resource (walls, turrets, etc)

Now, all of this stuff is NOT bad. But let's look at differences between chaos and order

chaos
- cheap aoe (bombers)
- poison puddle (order has no way of landing a "landmine", so to speak, chaos and eles are only able to)
- reaping (marrow fear)
- auto heal
- crawler animation cancels

order
- wizard spell casting (multiple aoe options)
- heavy cure potential with merics
- thick skin (spearton wall)


...and that's it. These 2 empires share a LOT in common yet have enough differences to warrant playstyle change. Note that I left out some subtle changes like medusa vs ninja, dead vs archidon, etc, but you get the point. I am talking about drastic changes, or new physics. And that's the point; elementals have too much new tech to be balanced or squeezed in there with order and chaos. It's like they're from another game.

That's all. I wish we could stop talking about it.

I heard you talking about how unbalanced ele is for many many times
All you have said was "drastic changes, or new physics"
but can you at least mention what you think they should change, instead of just saying " Oh they have many problems" ?

I heard many people blaming unbalanced shits from ele , but I seldom heard concrete suggestions
It is useless if there are only complaints instead of suggestions

so far last time you talked about water heal needs fucking nerf, and now it is really ridiculous now

Quote from mysterybat

I heard you talking about how unbalanced ele is for many many times
All you have said was "drastic changes, or new physics"
but can you at least mention what you think they should change, instead of just saying " Oh they have many problems" ?

I heard many people blaming unbalanced shits from ele , but I seldom heard concrete suggestions
It is useless if there are only complaints instead of suggestions

so far last time you talked about water heal needs fucking nerf, and now it is really ridiculous now

I try to refrain from doing this because if we're building from the bottom up, it's really not my place. I'm not a dev. I also don't think any of us have a strong enough voice. But if you want it, fine. whatever.

- Knock off instant combinations. Keep the pattern with the other empires of having..
1) Miner
2) Melee tier 1 (earth)
3) Ranged tier 1 (fire)
4) Spell-caster tier 1 (water)
5) Spell-caster tier 2 (cycloid)
6) Melee tier 2* (charrog)
7) Melee tier 2* (treature)
8) Ranged (aerial) tier 2 (air)
9) Melee/Ranged/Spellcaster tier 3 (V)

* bombers are key 6 and jugs key 7 while spears are key 6 and ninjas key 7. ninjas and bombers I consider to be in a special category even if they are both melee units. I wish juggers were key 6, would provide some consistency.

I know what this looks like: I'm freaking out of my mind. Well, if it was constructed like this, it would feel better as everything is formatted to the original design of the game. Then we can start making more calls with better judgement on unit powers and weaknesses. I'll start some of my general opinions:

- Elemental combinations have way too much health in general. Charrogs, cycloids, and treatures are just... tanky. Yet, despite this, they have issue going up head to head in battle. This is because having 3 strong armored and healthy units does not give you a win against a larger group of units. So let's even the playing field - cut the fat, and slim all the health down. Now give reasonable prices to their own unit slot, and you have some table to work with.

- Remove ability to control scorpions. Allow upgrades to increase health in both the treature and scorpions (so reduce the starting treature health). Treatures once again block air units.

- Decrease health on charrog. Make it more like spearton/jugger.

- Increase miner build time to 8s and Earths to 10s.

- Provide defensive resource like wall or turret.

- Nerf the heck outa castle air and fire damage. Like, drop burn for castle air (srsly why, regular airs don't burn unless... they should??) and fires are too strong once they get a couple hits. Keep the speed, but either make them weak burn only, or just hit people and then give airs burning damage. maybe switch those units entirely, it's just silly right now.

- Nerf cyloid health and increase cost for tonade casting. Allow for more of an animation or warning or slightly reduce its effects. If you're using my cycloids, you're using more nades. So in theory, either hitting them less or having them not be as effective will keep these units still good. Oh yeah, toss that invulnerability thing. Just provide armour or temporary resistance.

-Increase cost of V and fix mechanics. Teleporting backwards should have him run backwards (or you can queue the command to run backwards by clicking backwards right away, not having to get it the moment he's out of teleport). clones hot key cntrl + 0

-That's all I can think of for now, but infernos are good and waters I think are decent now.

Maybe you right that we don't have enough of a voice
But I was waching your video about burn damage and Chaos and power and I quote. 'I was talking to CJ and brock and about this' And that how we get change by talking to the devs all of us.
If we carry on making noise we can change the empire

The combination idea is broken

Ele is nothing like order and Chaos and Ele has no basic structure (of units ie tier 1 tier 2 3 melle giant tier 1 and 2 ranged etc)

Too many units are 'special' like tress


WyzDm

would you rip up and start again?

You have listen a lot of legitimate problems

what about lack of dps and no late tank?

If we are going to have V as a spell caster and a melle unit then we needa giant charhog or a giant tree

Some suggestion

V to be actually a viable unit that doesn't need even more micro then it should due to the way how possesion works, maybe even an increase in health so it doesn't get killed the moment you get it.

A proper structure that is not the most useless thing in the world.

If we are gonne cut off health we should atleast give them more range and damage so they can actually fight against tier 1 units and things that are 1 meter above the ground or maybe give some ele units less pop (again looking at you V)

Earth spawn rate time to 6 seconds and morph time 3 seconds.

Earth's need a faster attack so they can actually hit someone, but make the stun duration not even a second (so less dumb stun locks) or remove the stun completely.

Ele to actually have a way of healing, give them Nature heal or something it makes more sense and it creates the oppertunity to rework water to make it not the worst controllable unit in the game, don't try to deny it ele cannot heal at all right now.

You can't fix tree's without removing it completely or making it a blindgate tier unit, people will always complain about it. Also ele is a "unique" empire so giving them a a normal hud will make them even more of a dumb extra empire nobody plays or is actually good.

Quote from WyzDM

Oh yeah, toss that invulnerability thing. Just provide armour or temporary resistance.

You realise that that cycloid spell is litteraly already an armour/temporary resistance spell right? They can still take damage and die whilst in that mode its NOT invincible.

V's health is fine, seriously. It doesn't get killed the moment it's made. That would be some serious glitch. V damage from clone upgrade is also fine. idk if you know this but it's actually pretty good dps.

Gamer your complaints sound like you don't even know what you're doing.

Earths are fine because they have stun, and if you clip once you can stun lock. I actually like the earth combat. You have to commit to an attack if you want it, but you can cancel and move it, so you can have really good set ups. Make it faster and stun locking is free. Like c'mon man, don't even go here.

Also, 6 seconds?? Why??? Everything else is 8? Please tell me WHY THE FUCK eles need faster starting units?! Like, shit.

Eles need a way to heal... it's called waters. And waters work fine. You can sack the waters for healing by sending them in the line of damage or fire for unit freezeing and getting the heal on death. It can act as a quick shield. It's better than manually detonating it. It's like bombers, manual detonation is hardly ever best, but sometimes has practical or immediate use.

...and you're against them having a normal fucking screen... because that will make them bad? What the actual fuck?

I will give you credit on the cycloids. When did that change take place? Anyway, I'm glad it did, I appreciate the value of the unit more. I still think it may be too strong, but I think that only reflects on how much fucking health these guys have. If they were cheaper and could be produced in a normal build scenario but have less health, I think they'd be a great fit in the game.

Oh speaking of that, let's add to my previous rant of thinks wrong.

Airs should NOT just shoot whatever the fuck they want. Let them zap, but zaps can hit targets blocking. Let the lighting come from the air unit, not the sky. I think this would be cool. I also think if the damage was slightly decreased and then the attack speed was bumped up faster, airs would actually be cool and maybe be a better range unit to start with than a fire and we can forget that whole early burn thing that causes problems.

cycloids should not be able to attack anything on the ground save giants and the statue. that means walls. WHY CAN THEY ATTACK WALLS.

infernos can do the dragon spell even if they die before it's summoned. I think this is stupid and not needed. It makes it even more risky to approach, and can reward some dumb scenarios where you get the kill but then get shat on by a dragon from some dying hope that only has the game drag on for no reason. I mean, if you're gonna favor this to stay, I want my venom fluxes to happen even after you shinobi my magikill during his spell casting. What do you say, fair trade?

anyway I'm pretty done with the subject of eles, we all have way too many different ideas. My ideas may even be the worst, so who the hell knows, why should we care? I say we leave it, see what the devs can do, and just hope for the best come 3.0.

I am going to try to look at the ideas Wyz has put here, but I still think Ele has a chance to be fun and more even in terms of gameplay without complete reworking from the ground up. Making viable counters and counters to counters in the gameplay as it progresses up seems to me still possible keeping the combinations. I think ele would also lose too much identity if that was scrapped.

We are fine with the DPS the problem is V cant be a front line unit because of how valuable it is. (its a HVT for the enemy) and it doesn't have enough health to stay their long enough to cause some serious damage. if it had some more it could take more damage and then become a spell caster and move away from the front line (like a magikill would) its like a super sword and a magikill in one that's why its hard to balance it has two very different roles. Its NOT just a SPELLCASTER. V clones are fine cause their expendable if they die it doesn't matter. although they do less damage than V until the upgrade. For the Cost its not unfair to have more health so it can be melee and spell caster.

For me personaly im not a pro player like most people on their forums and I don't have the ablity of someone like you Whyz but for me the major turn off of takeing tower with earths is that they lose 1v1 to swords (while costing more than swords). Each unit should have its own slot. and I would increase swords to 150 earths to 125 to reflect this. Swords > Earth > Crawler. I do appreciate this is a game of armies and crawlers make up for it in speed and their strength in numbers. (they can get together faster because their faster). However Earths lack decent support. I don't call water decent and airs and fires are costly. I appreciate the point about stun lock but you need numbers to do that ( 3+) and it is reasonable to suggests that if you have 3 earths you enemy will have 3 swords in this case the Dps from the swords still wins. You need decent micro to stun lock this takes time and one or two sword hits. the swords will take out a earth faster than a earth can take out a sword and suddenly your at a disadvantage. Oh and maybe archers could be a problem. Earths are miners so they need a fast build time so you can make both if necessary. Swords are 12 miners are 8. Earths would be fine at 6 seconds but them shareing a queue causes problems. you can mass miners faster than other empires and you could mass eaths faster than you can mass swords. I don't see the logic in 4 seconds.

Waters could be fine but they need their healing put back to where it was and a charhog hp nerf. Waters should heal a certain amount to each unit maybe 2 bars and 5 bars with advanced healing. or what ever it was before.
I were going to stick with the combination idea then waters have to serve a offensive role to support swords I suggest they do damage through hyperthermia only small damage but meaningful.

Cycloids need to have a role and stick to it. are they anti air or support. If we go down the support route. Then because their airborne this makes them a big target so maybe they do need the health maybe a small reducation in health.
Cycloids would benefit from their own slot in fact the whole empire would. Perhaps they could be cheap support units. Then maybe that would warrant a hp reduction.I don't see them as anti air units. But they too expensive atm

I think airs should shoot from their body and the lightening blast should do diagonally down. I would make fires a early game ranged unit and airs mid game. I would give airs a mana cost 3 bars of health (cause their glass cannons) and a upgrade for burn damage. maybe burning lightning or something.

I would remove burn from fires and give them more horizontal range or a straight path on their attacks. why the fire curves I don't know.

Id make tress like the magikill from SW1 (but a late game tank as well). So AOE stun. Id would make tress a late game caster and a giant. They would cost. 1500 gold 500 mana. They would do AOE stun and produces 5 scorplings at once (but they auto attack that why they come out at the same time once) they would have health upgrade for the scorplings and tree oh and the tress would start smaller but get bigger. ( no posion on scorps). No tress early game but we have one problem.

Miner
Earth
Water
Fire
air
Tree
Charog
Cycloid
Infernos
V

that's 10 units. Id hate to cut a unit so we would have to keep earths morphing like they are now. The changes wold create this structure.

Miner and mellee 1 Earth
mellee 2. Charhog
Melle 2 Water.
Ranged 1 fire
Ragned 2 air
Spellcaster 1 (weak early game spellcaster) cycloid. This would be a nice but balanced change to the structure
Spell caster 2 Infernos
Spell caster 3. V (maybe wipe out melee option hp buff to 4 bars but less dps maybe current dps on clones thou.
Giant Tree.

Waters again would be in the ninja bomber category.

if we made V just a spell caster we could cheapen the price of it and make balance easier by giving it a easier role/


This would solve all a few problems of ele.

Excuse my bad grammar and punctuation. Its earlier morning and I probably have made mistakes. Its readable thou.

Been lurking this, but no comments mostly unless it's an outright falsity I will reply. I prefer to email my suggestions direct.

"For me personaly im not a pro player like most people on their forums and I don't have the ablity of someone like you Whyz but for me the major turn off of takeing tower with earths is that they lose 1v1 to swords (while costing more than swords). Each unit should have its own slot. and I would increase swords to 150 earths to 125 to reflect this. Swords > Earth > Crawler. I do appreciate this is a game of armies and crawlers make up for it in speed and their strength in numbers. (they can get together faster because their faster). However Earths lack decent support. I don't call water decent and airs and fires are costly. I appreciate the point about stun lock but you need numbers to do that ( 3+) and it is reasonable to suggests that if you have 3 earths you enemy will have 3 swords in this case the Dps from the swords still wins. You need decent micro to stun lock this takes time and one or two sword hits. the swords will take out a earth faster than a earth can take out a sword and suddenly your at a disadvantage. Oh and maybe archers could be a problem. Earths are miners so they need a fast build time so you can make both if necessary. Swords are 12 miners are 8. Earths would be fine at 6 seconds but them shareing a queue causes problems. you can mass miners faster than other empires and you could mass eaths faster than you can mass swords. I don't see the logic in 4 seconds."

> So earth CAN turn into a miner at any time, AND win tower? Lol.
> Numbers = 2 earths. so 2 earths can and will permanently stunlock any unit that gets hit. Nice job.
> The reason they're 4 seconds is they contest as both army units and economic units. Have you considered the ramifications of 6 seconds? Getting 3 earths out, the 3rd earth will be 6 seconds later than usual. You won't be able to capture tower vs AM starts anymore, and delay Order tower economy for 4~ seconds. You can already think of all those things early game. As well as that, you can't match Order sword/miner production.

TL;DR why

Ok then two earths V two swords who wins the swords. the two earths will stun lock the sword but the sword will still deal damage faster than the earths can. all you have to do is select you swords and right click on one earth easy.

Earths can turn into a miner at any time I think that's fair considering they cost 150 gold which is the price of a miner anyway. and their hardly setting the world a light.

If you secure tower than you can chose to send some of your earths to become miners BUT

If you send every earth you make to get tower. Then that gonna take a lot of earths you will probably have to out number your enemy. you will be short on economy.

If you send some back to miner you reduce your army and maybe that might cause you to lose tower.

lets say you do the 3 earth start that 18 seconds. 2 sword 1 miner 24 seconds. 1 sword 2 miner 16 seconds. archerdon start 15 seconds.

heres the difference you have a great army with 3 earths and you can immiedatly stun lock. you also have great eco. and your incredibly flexible. earths that become miners is a very interesting concept and it can stay. if we keep earths at 4 seconds then we could have issues with miner spam. Ele has archer problems in general I don't know why you think earths to 6 seconds would cause archer problems when their already their?

You cant match sword miner production.

well with 4 seconds you can beat it.

Earths need a attack speed buff as well the extra 2 second balance that buff

Earths were never made fit for anti archer. They're not fast enough to run into archers like crawlers and even opting for earth into low hp miner recycling I can't see earths ever managing to do anything but delay an archer pushing in till there's a second or third archer, then even this fails and now all your miners are 1 hit kill and there's an archer in your base

Unless waters or airs or even fires can anti archer ele is not going to be able to kill archers in the early game unless Order is stupid. Given this will shut down any option for ele other than turtle into trees it's quite a big issue for early game health.

then waters should have a speed increase and deal damage

I'm kinda disgusted by it all tbh.
Earth que time as is is the only way for ele to actually contest for tower considering the cost and be it that it is a melee unit that also constitutes as your economy producers. Having to run to middle to contest then run back to morph provides that extra time delay y'all crave enough as far as I'm aware. archer miner start already makes it difficult to play against with earths. The que time for them allows for you to not to be rekt by a single purchase of 300 gold. The same thing happens in ovo long maps where the opponent can spam miners into archer or ca via stall changing the que time will tremendously affect how ele is able to even begin to compete.
Castle air with aoe is stupid not sure why people were so butthurt by it.
Scorps cost mana now to spawn. And having them blind attack with hat shitty dps is disgusting. It's like having a ts1 and simply rotating swords. Scorps need to prioritize units or else the enemy player gets free cheese.
Cycloids don't grant any sort of invulnerability the shield spell in relation to their health is terrible. And doesnt allow for the unit to get close enough to really stay in he fray without punishment. Not to mention how long the spell really lasts.
Charrogs I hardly ever use.
Fires need to be able to shred through armoires units nerfing them again is pure idiocy. Even now they are outraged by wings and archers. There foward kite game is awful.
Waters are fine.
V is fine
Inferno is fine
Blind gate is bae
Airs could be changed but not sure exactly how to go about it

What would everyone like to see next patch?
what do you think we will see next patch?

I just want a meaningful change that actualy changes something. no whishy washy changes that don't effect the game at all. (like earth back from blind gate)

I want to see something like this

Waters do damage

Earth attack speed buff

castle air elemental nerf

Quote from PUMU

I'm kinda disgusted by it all tbh.
Earth que time as is is the only way for ele to actually contest for tower considering the cost and be it that it is a melee unit that also constitutes as your economy producers. Having to run to middle to contest then run back to morph provides that extra time delay y'all crave enough as far as I'm aware. archer miner start already makes it difficult to play against with earths. The que time for them allows for you to not to be rekt by a single purchase of 300 gold. The same thing happens in ovo long maps where the opponent can spam miners into archer or ca via stall changing the que time will tremendously affect how ele is able to even begin to compete.

I think you're missing the point. We hopefully all know that, but there's also bad effects like ele's eco being literally faster thanks to it. Saying the earth queue needs to be longer to deal with ele being able to outeco for free doesn't mean that ele must only be changed like that, hell, that would be stupid. These changes are going to have to come in groups, nerf the earth queue time, buff something else (waters) so ele can cope with archers

Quote from PUMU

Castle air with aoe is stupid not sure why people were so butthurt by it.

> CAir 'nerf' was meant to let Order actually pressure ele, it didn't which annoyed a lot of people including me

Anyway some questions I have
Do you think cycloids need a buff?
Also do you think infernoe's meteor pool lasts too long?

If earths were increased to 6s it wouldn't it cause problems?
As order can produce swords and miners

if ele produced earths contantly one mined one didn't

miner 6s
earth 12s
miner 18s
earth 24.
Ele would be at a disadvantage

Order

Miner 8s
sword 12
miner 16
sword 24
miner 24

at 24s Order has
3 miners
2 swords

Ele has

2 earth 2 miner

Order has a advantage and swords are cheaper