Blind gate discussion (Yes it's back)

Started by: PUMU | Replies: 41 | Views: 3,411

PUMU
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Jul 12, 2015 5:47 PM #1382093

So, i was thinking to myself (unless i can think to others .-.) about this impractical structure.
I noticed several things people tend to complain about when interacting with the enemy's macro composition.
1. Shadow mass. Once set up, ele has no real way of approaching the buggers except in the case of super micro champions. As we know, shadows can out run most ele units, can shinobi their way out of almost all situations if played correctly, and instarek the only 2 units capable of manipulating them (i.e V's and waters)
2. Wing stall. Where the opponent uses their statue as the boss unit aka SUPATANK (mostly due to ele units dps being altered vs the enemy units. like fires dealing less damage to unarmoured as opposed to heavy tanks and structures.) the opponent could have virtually no way to approach but can outrange and kite w/poison and possible turret assist.
3. Bombs cause duh.
(KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ARE THE ONLY REAL ISSUES ELE HAS TO FACE. DEATHBALL CAN BE STOPPED VIA MY PROPOSAL AS WELL)

Blind gate as of now only visually impairs the opponent who is NOT past its borders. Basically its entire purpose is nullified by a single unit approaching so it has no practical use. You spend 550 g for this. It cannot be used without support and has a set time limit.

I propose, the blind gate recieve a single addition. This would be, blind gate impairs the opponents ability to EITHER see beyond in entirety like it should (which is rational) OR impair the ability to select choice units in the following ways. The opponent loses the ability to right click beyond the bg perimeter, HOWEVER , they may select their units and click anywhere before the bg.

To prevent abuse of this and to make it even more reasonable, the user does not recieve the earth back, the user may not que another for 30 seconds between so the opponent has the opportunity to engage at that point with their shadows, bombs, etc.
Ranged units outside the gate may still see in the second variant of blind gate but can only right click for on ele units for as long as they stay out of bg line.
(For the 30 sec delay an additional anim to show that the bg is down such as the orbs on top of both posts shatter. The posts remain standing/broken for 28 seconds, falls the next two.)

This fixes the issue of approaching shadow massing for the most part and makes turtles slightly more approachable with casters.
If a cost change needs to further balance the second bg variant to further balance so be it.

Wing stall
bombs and wings will be manipulated for field control with the proper usage of my suggestion.
Trees will move upon bg coverage to root to gradually gain ground on the opponent. (along with other support) IT ALSO COMPENSATES FOR THE RANGE DOMINANCE WITH PROPER BG PLACEMENT.

Recap:
Bg V1= no vision beyond barrier AT ALL.
Bg V2= Micro manipulative whilst retaining vision when beyong bg line. Loss of vision if no longer past bg line. Delayed que time and increased cost (mana wise.)

Skeletonxf
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Jul 12, 2015 6:09 PM #1382099

Have you considered if blind gate is even healthy for the game? (Hint: It's not)

Removing vision is completely in opposition to any other mechanic in the game. Removing opponent control ability is also. Neither of these mechanics are going to make ele even close to more enjoyable for either players.
Option one and you see people opt for denying the opponent view of their own gold mines.
Option two and you just make the game less intuitive for the other player, and still don't fix deathball or deal with wingmass in a way that promotes any interaction.

Ele needs more interaction with the opponent, not less.

Mystery

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Jul 12, 2015 6:12 PM #1382100

My idea is pretty simple

1) Make it have a health bar like turret and miner wall
2) Block any range units to pass and attack through the gate, only melee units can attack/pass through the gate.

so it is actually making ranged units "blind"

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Jul 12, 2015 8:19 PM #1382129

Quote from mysterybat
My idea is pretty simple

1) Make it have a health bar like turret and miner wall
2) Block any range units to pass and attack through the gate, only melee units can attack/pass through the gate.

so it is actually making ranged units "blind"

I agree with this but how it's blocking ranged units. Ranged unit attacks, yes, but they should be able to walk through the gate or shoot past it if there's a melee unit running through. You guys complain that it's too easy to do that, but if you had a charrog run with some waters behind it would be such a nice set up to stop spears from making their way in. No one would want to run ranged units in to see past anyway given there could be a blast or inferno waiting. Also, blind gate would just be much better if archers right now couldn't just shoot random things past it.

To add to the health of the blind gate, maybe combine more earths for more health, and cap out at 3. That would be too strong now with how earths are only 4s queues, but with a structure like the other empires as I've discussed, this would be a nice feature I could see being helpful without too damaging to the current meta.

On a side note, once the cap (3) has been reached, you can't add any earths to repair it. So it's like wall, no hp restore.

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Jul 12, 2015 10:57 PM #1382154

Meh. I don't feel blindgate is a structure worth taking a unit slot up over. Replace blind gate with the ability to great a giant charrog and make blindgate a 300g buildable, keeping it the way it is.

PUMU
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Jul 12, 2015 11:07 PM #1382160

Quote from Skeletonxf
Have you considered if blind gate is even healthy for the game? (Hint: It's not)

Removing vision is completely in opposition to any other mechanic in the game
Complete and total control over a unit wasnt a mechanic either until the release of elementals with the introduction of the V unit. Keeping what you're saying in mind the blind gate is already an existing feature. Simply fixing the subtle nuance of its actual purpose not working in some areas would make the structure more practical and open up more macro and micro gameplay.
. Removing opponent control ability is also.
Waters, reaper spell, V possess all manipulate the opponent and prevent the opponent from controlling in some way.
Neither of these mechanics are going to make ele even close to more enjoyable for either players.
Enjoy-ability isnt what im looking for in a game especially seeing how one unit change in general wouldnt improve the overall feel of a game or game style in particular.
It's simply to fix some issues elementals have with facing the three things i listed. (possibly deathball if it plays how it does in my mind :D)
Option one and you see people opt for denying the opponent view of their own gold mines.
Don't miners auto-mine now? The only thing it takes away is the ability to micro your miners. However, i do see the possibility now that one could air start and que an earth afterward in Variant 1 of Blind Gate, but in doing so is down to 2 miners whilst the opponent can simply click his miners as they spawn and click on any gold mine as the fog does not prevent them from seeing the gold, the blind gate eventually times out anyhow and the opponent will then have the advantage of xMiners and more than likely free tower. Basically an even worse version of tree start at that point. For mid game i would hope that the elemental player has the knowledge that the opponent is likely to have archers to kite the approaching air and earth so blind gate would be difficult to throw into the opponents base quickly without punishment.
Option two and you just make the game less intuitive for the other player, and still don't fix deathball or deal with wingmass in a way that promotes any interaction.
However, at the point where deathball and wing mass are completely formed, elemental players have little to no options in dealing with it anyway. The interaction isnt really a thing its just either spam, i.e wing mass, or deathball which blind gate would give the elemental player a fighting chance in preventing the opponent from wrecking house when they were losing from the get go and were simply camping behind 3 CA and walls.
Ele needs more interaction with the opponent, not less.
Oh! You mean like where the opponent has range dominance via archer start. Or when trees vs archers/swords go at it? Or is there still the issue of order players not being able to run in base with archer/sword start due to Castle air, causing everyone to complain that their archer was being sniped (when the purpose of a defense is to... Defend) Yet everyone has full knowledge that EACH AND EVERY EMPIRE'S CASTLE UNIT DOES NOT MAKE DEFINITE TARGET SELECTIONS. But, instead randomly selects one and sticks with it until it dies. Similar to some opponents flipping the coffee table over having their archer get poisoned by a castle dead when attempting to rush into base with s/a start. AH! i also thought about how ele has to conform rather than run in with any definite macro composition according to what the opponent is doing if not anything when deciding how to approach. Aside from player preference of Charrogs or Trees, the support following that is highly influenced by the opponents macro choices.
But, Yes. Let us open more routes... other... than the... one im suggesting?

Heard what you're saying, took it into account, and this is my response.

Mysterybat's post:
My idea is pretty simple

1) Make it have a health bar like turret and miner wall
2) Block any range units to pass and attack through the gate, only melee units can attack/pass through the gate.

so it is actually making ranged units "blind"

Does this mean that it doesnt take damage from ranged units? And whats the purpose of the health bar if melee units are able to pass through it? If the melee units cannot pass and range units cannot fire through this would make the game worse than what i was suggesting (when it comes to EvO in particular as not only will ranged units be unable to support the melee units, which may or may not consist of low dps tanks, but it'd make it very very similar in some places to where the order player was able to build walls right next to the castle gates of the opponent which as we know... was bad.

On a second read of your suggestion, doesnt this make it just like a wall? With utterly no difference except for a two second inability to see?

WyzDM's Post:
I agree with this but how it's blocking ranged units. Ranged unit attacks, yes, but they should be able to walk through the gate or shoot past it if there's a melee unit running through. Then the blind gate basically doesnt exist.
You guys complain that it's too easy to do that, but if you had a charrog run with some waters behind it would be such a nice set up to stop spears from making their way in. No one would want to run ranged units in to see past anyway given there could be a blast or inferno waiting.
Also, blind gate would just be much better if archers right now couldn't just shoot random things past it.
I cant say that i agree with this as, again this makes it a bit too easy for elementals to approach. The range unit presence is the only force present keeping elementals on their toes for most of the game.

To add to the health of the blind gate, maybe combine more earths for more health, and cap out at 3. That would be too strong now with how earths are only 4s queues, but with a structure like the other empires as I've discussed, this would be a nice feature I could see being helpful without too damaging to the current meta. Like a separate structure entirely?

On a side note, once the cap (3) has been reached, you can't add any earths to repair it. So it's like wall, no hp restore.

Mystery

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Jul 13, 2015 4:01 AM #1382233

Yeah, my original idea was that blind gate won't take damage from blind gate/wings , while it can be attacked my sword/spears/jugs

because ele has the problem of dealing with range unit mass like wing mass/archer mas s
and ele range units are all shorter ranged and expensive.

and " but it'd make it very very similar in some places to where the order player was able to build walls right next to the castle gates of the opponent which as we know... was bad."

Of course a range of blind gate must be set lol

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Jul 13, 2015 4:06 AM #1382237

The whole idea of blindgate pumu is for defense. Actually having a blind gate doesn't grant eles free approaches, it gives them a safe haven. A place where if we nerfed enough of the jank from cycloids and treatures, units would be rationally functional without being so different from the other empires.

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Jul 13, 2015 5:20 AM #1382257

Quote from WyzDM
I agree with this but how it's blocking ranged units. Ranged unit attacks, yes, but they should be able to walk through the gate or shoot past it if there's a melee unit running through. You guys complain that it's too easy to do that, but if you had a charrog run with some waters behind it would be such a nice set up to stop spears from making their way in. No one would want to run ranged units in to see past anyway given there could be a blast or inferno waiting. Also, blind gate would just be much better if archers right now couldn't just shoot random things past it.

To add to the health of the blind gate, maybe combine more earths for more health, and cap out at 3. That would be too strong now with how earths are only 4s queues, but with a structure like the other empires as I've discussed, this would be a nice feature I could see being helpful without too damaging to the current meta.

On a side note, once the cap (3) has been reached, you can't add any earths to repair it. So it's like wall, no hp restore.

Agree fairly solidly with both Myst and Wyz. Good points.

Better iteration than yours, as Wyz has basically stated.

Also "DEATHBALL CAN BE STOPPED VIA MY PROPOSAL AS WELL" we just complained about shadowmassing being a problem. That's a huge part of a deathball.

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Jul 13, 2015 5:35 AM #1382267

If airs weren't absolute shit eles could have air game lol. Think bout how chaos or order deals with ninjas.

wingggggzs

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Jul 13, 2015 5:58 AM #1382273

Quote from DragonArcherZ
Agree fairly solidly with both Myst and Wyz. Good points.

Better iteration than yours, as Wyz has basically stated.

Also "DEATHBALL CAN BE STOPPED VIA MY PROPOSAL AS WELL" we just complained about shadowmassing being a problem. That's a huge part of a deathball.

So, i was thinking to myself (unless i can think to others .-.) about this impractical structure.
I noticed several things people tend to complain about when interacting with the enemy's macro composition.
1. Shadow mass. Once set up, ele has no real way of approaching the buggers except in the case of super micro champions. As we know, shadows can out run most ele units, can shinobi their way out of almost all situations if played correctly, and instarek the only 2 units capable of manipulating them (i.e V's and waters) OP
deathball is not purely shadow massing as you are aware.

@wyz
Yes, that is correct. Which is why i couldnt decide whether the first or second variant would be more acceptable without affecting the other two empires drastically to where at least ele has an option for the things i had listed in the op that i've seen appear time and time again throughout most debates regarding elementals.

@myst
Yes, after thinking about the things a user might exploit as ive tried to simulate games in my mind as to how people may attempt to use/abuse the bg if it is changed in any of the ways we are all coming up with together.

We all agree that bg needs some change from the get go which is good. The list now comes to:
1. Shadow Mass
2. Deathball
3. Wing mass
(removing bombs cause chaos should have this pressure regardless of how annoying it is)

Myst Variant of Bg:
Deals with the range defecit ele has vs wings and archers.
Affects Deathball and shadow mass kinda indirectly if the opponent doesnt micro his shinobi hits at not only BG but also controlling his other shadows to hit the priority units.
Absorbs the projectiles which kind of allows for a defensive stall measure vs incoming pressure. Doesnt really deal with the issue any further.

Wyz Variant:
Allows units to pass but blocks projectiles still.
Shadowmass is ignored.
Deathball is somewhat affected by loss of range influence but still allows for shadows to rush the support needed to neutralize enemy comp.

Pumu Variant 1:
Impairs vision.
Directly deals with shadow approach.
Does not protect from projectiles, however it does prevent projectiles and melee units from prioritizing.
All units cannot see regardless of location beyond the barrier. This makes it risky to run units beyond its origin.
Indirectly dealing with most things but most strongly affecting shadows as they cannot chase down V's as easily.

Pumu Variant 2:
Allows visibility but loss of control of units so that the opponent may still target specific units if and only if they click from before the origin.
Deals with shadows as they cannot be microed effectively if the ele player makes use of his abilities such as waters and other such manipulative units. Making it a better idea for the opponent to stay away but being able to retrieve info about what the ele player is doing and making it a better idea to approach with ranged units. However, with correct placement of BG you will be able to make the opponent run into things effectively if they choose to do so.
Deathball becomes increasingly difficult for the order player to micro with. As they will have to deal with their shadows not being able to prioritize as effectively, which allows for V's to be able to approach along with other spell casters, and sets up opportunity for waters to freeze and scorch.
Wing mass is indirectly dealt with as the opponent loses their micro capabilities beyond the origin but does not completely neutralize them. (allowing for each macro to be played out however makes it slightly more balanced for both empires to be able to interact in a completely different way.)

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Jul 13, 2015 6:05 AM #1382274

what is "deathball"

Mystery

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Jul 13, 2015 6:17 AM #1382279

just to say, shadow mass and shadow + magikill combo is a super troublesome issue for ele still

but I don't think this issue should be solved via blind gate.

It may be better to make some changes on V/air

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Jul 13, 2015 6:35 AM #1382285

I just figure since Blind gate has no use as of yet, why not mold into a new tool that doesnt directly impede the opponent?

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Jul 13, 2015 9:35 AM #1382309

Quote from WyzDM
what is "deathball"

vs Ele? Shadowrath/Magikill IS the fucking deathball pumu.

If they make cycloids, make giants.

Ninja/Mage/Giant with spicing of say some left-over archers and ele struggles to find an answer!

Pumu says deathball you can deal with, except ninjas (and mages) ARE the key component of it! No one makes giants w/o cycloids, merics are nice supplements as well. But the core of a vE deathball is there! Pumu wants to define it as an Order player going full foreigner and massing giants with a few shadows and 1 mage! I don't understand how much it takes to get this into your head dude.