Quote from nutsophast

Comparing the ranged units side by side isn't exactly going to work. Elementals can deal with ranged units and late game just fine.

I feel like this dust elemental should fill the gap of the blind gate it would replace, assuming dust guy does come into the game. I was thinking some support abilities with debuffs similar to blind gate, maybe some dust storm that inhibits vision or speed?

Little less damage than an albow. It'll be a kind of supporting ranged unit, not the kind you'll mass like archers. 3 bars of health minimum for combinations, but no armor. Maybe long range?

I don't want this elemental to be that strong, the combinations we have are already quite powerful.

You can't control your units if they are in "the dust storm". Anti ninja confirmed?

Ele already has enough supporting units. What it lacks is a bread and butter ranged unit. And Ase hell no, removing user controls will not make the gameplay fun for the opponenet.

Something I dislike about ele is that it can create/mass multiple different units and not get punished for it like the other empires. It makes counter-microing virtually impossible at times when there are scorps air(s) fire(s) charrog(s) water(s) etc in your base. (mainly in CvE rush)

I think once Ele is more mana dependent and less on gold this will sort itself out because Ele won't have a stray 800 mana to summon up an army out of nowhere with no drawbacks.

Quote from Skeletonxf

I think once Ele is more mana dependent and less on gold this will sort itself out because Ele won't have a stray 800 mana to summon up an army out of nowhere with no drawbacks.

they can still spam miners and shit over your attempts at pressure

The rush sucks for order as well, especially in DM. But I can see for chaos that if ele gets ahead on you, since Chaos doesn't have the defensive abilities of order, you would need some real good thinking and micro to counter.

Alternate, I see your concerns, but what you have to realize is that DM overall is not balanced. Both chaos AND elementals can just shit all over order in DM.

@kaito Order simply spams archers and gets away with it in the same respect. Elementals on the other hand can't just mass random units and win, you need a plan, good micro and macro. Just like any other empire.

Only time elementals would just spam random units and win would be DM. But lets not confuse that with classic in this discussion.

Spamming miners is what every empire does, 4 second que for earth but also transform time which kind of makes up for it. As for "shitting over your attempts at pressure", it's called defending, and order can do that even better.

I don't see how making elementals more reliant on mana will help, their gold costs aren't higher than order or chaos so I don't see how they're "gold dependent" either.

Quote from nutsophast

Alternate, I see your concerns, but what you have to realize is that DM overall is not balanced. Both chaos AND elementals can just shit all over order in DM.

@kaito Order simply spams archers and gets away with it in the same respect. Elementals on the other hand can't just mass random units and win, you need a plan, good micro and macro. Just like any other empire.

Only time elementals would just spam random units and win would be DM. But lets not confuse that with classic in this discussion.

Spamming miners is what every empire does, 4 second que for earth but also transform time which kind of makes up for it. As for "shitting over your attempts at pressure", it's called defending, and order can do that even better.

I don't see how making elementals more reliant on mana will help, their gold costs aren't higher than order or chaos so I don't see how they're "gold dependent" either.

The basic units cost gold before the combine ya know.

Quote from nutsophast

I don't see how making elementals more reliant on mana will help, their gold costs aren't higher than order or chaos so I don't see how they're "gold dependent" either.

How exactly do you intend to justify that claim?



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZagvMjGCur1RixRNGm5B-5Xvj5PYxwuTixmwSvsbo5g/edit?usp=sharing

Quote from nutsophast

Alternate, I see your concerns, but what you have to realize is that DM overall is not balanced. Both chaos AND elementals can just shit all over order in DM.

Oh trust me, as a 2200 order player in DM, I know only too well...

Quote from Skeletonxf

How exactly do you intend to justify that claim?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZagvMjGCur1RixRNGm5B-5Xvj5PYxwuTixmwSvsbo5g/edit?usp=sharing

That's a very well put-together spreadsheet. Do you have any more like it?

Quote from Nyarlathotep

That's a very well put-together spreadsheet. Do you have any more like it?

Can't tell if sarcastic or not.

I made it on the spot. I could easily make more if necessary.

Wow i'm not being sarcastic, it's a really pro statistics chart. I see that elementals does have more gold cost if you buy one of each unit.

But if you look at the graph full scale, instead of 0 - 160 and not 112 - 140, the differences don't seem so dramatic:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4YrWA3qUpR6UWpmUTUxazFPdTg/view?usp=sharing

Can you make a similar graph using a sample army that would show the real gc/p figures in an actual match, because no one makes armies using one of each unit.

Is there such a thing as a sample army? Builds vary so dramatically among players, field size, etc. Maybe we should make a number of basic/average sample armies for OvO, OvC, CvC, etc. to share the work load. For instance, an order turtle is generally 1 spear, 2 merics, 1 magikill, 3-4 giants, 1 ninja, and as game progresses from them it really can vary, more giants as miners are offloaded, etc.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean, I'm not trying to say there's only one sample army. If skeleton had the time and could make graphs for each sample army that would be great.

A basic mid game sample army for OvO could be 3 spears, 8 archers, 2 merics.