Assisted suicide

Started by: En | Replies: 55 | Views: 3,161

Exile
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Mar 25, 2012 12:18 AM #621155

Quote from Obcidien
And yes, If I had that power then I would use it, it's only natural to think that your own beliefs are right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

No, this is called being closed-minded, it is natural but I'm surprised to see you wear it like some badge of honor.

I tried pretty hard to make my point clear but you seem to have missed it again. Especially since you just dismissively say "I don't know why my view is strange" when my entire post was an explanation of exactly that.

I mean seriously, did you even read what I wrote? I'm honestly a little surprised at the complete lack of acknowledgement of anything I said:

If someone presented the above case to me, I wouldn't hesitate to say, fuck yes I would stop all of the cold-blooded murders if I could. I wouldn't twist the wording around and say "Well, it's not like I could stop all of those murders by myself, they'll just ignore me and kill people anyway". That's not what he was asking and it's not why he asked it.

Had your read this, you would have realized how "changing the words is relevant". Your main point was that if it were up to you, suicide (or murder) wouldn't even exist. You also mentioned that people would do it anyway. Like I said, that's not what he was asking and it's not why he asked it. Those answers reply to a question nobody is asking.

..and, your response was to repeat the same answer. Except you changed the words, apparently just to make it contextually irrelevant with the other situation I created.

My main point is, what do you think gives you the right to tell someone they shouldn't kill themselves? Why do you so readily assume a position of authority and superior insight, over something as personal as someone's life? Of course if they committed suicide it'd be awful, but the only thing worse would be to deny a person his right to do so.

Nobody chooses their life, they should at least be given the right to choose their death. Without criticism from people like you, who think a decision based on absolutely nothing would be more valid than a choice based on the total sum of every thought and moment a person's ever had.

Obcidien

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Mar 25, 2012 12:59 AM #621180

Quote from Exilement
No, this is called being closed-minded, it is natural but I'm surprised to see you wear it like some badge of honor.

I tried pretty hard to make my point clear but you seem to have missed it again. Especially since you just dismissively say "I don't know why my view is strange" when my entire post was an explanation of exactly that.

I mean seriously, did you even read what I wrote? I'm honestly a little surprised at the complete lack of acknowledgement of anything I said:

Had your read this, you would have realized how "changing the words is relevant". Your main point was that if it were up to you, suicide (or murder) wouldn't even exist. You also mentioned that people would do it anyway. Like I said, that's not what he was asking and it's not why he asked it. Those answers reply to a question nobody is asking.

..and, your response was to repeat the same answer. Except you changed the words, apparently just to make it contextually irrelevant with the other situation I created.

My main point is, what do you think gives you the right to tell someone they shouldn't kill themselves? Why do you so readily assume a position of authority and superior insight, over something as personal as someone's life? Of course if they committed suicide it'd be awful, but the only thing worse would be to deny a person his right to do so.

Nobody chooses their life, they should at least be given the right to choose their death. Without criticism from people like you, who think a decision based on absolutely nothing would be more valid than a choice based on the total sum of every thought and moment a person's ever had.

Where at all did I say it was like a badge of honor? I simply acknowledged the fact that people will always believe their own views to be correct and that I am no different. Are you any different?

Quote from Exilement
Those answers reply to a question nobody is asking.

Except that you did ask them;

Quote from Exilement

That was easier than I thought it'd be. Your response seems a little weird now, doesn't it?
So, the question is, if you theoretically had the ability to personally stop every potential act of suicide from happening, would you do it?

If yes, well that's a little scary isn't it?

And I replied accordingly;

Quote from Obcidien

hey that wasn't so hard either :D Don't quite see how changing the words are relevant but we'll stick with it I guess. I don't see why my view is strange either, you know wanting people to live and all.

And yes, If I had that power then I would use it, it's only natural to think that your own beliefs are right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I'm that same way, I admit it, if you told me the earth was flat when all my life I thought it was round I'd say; "What the fuck have you been smoking?"

I know suicide exists, so does murder, rape, divorce, theft, and every other form violent, greedy act committed by human beings. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or even that I have to accept it. If possible I would get rid of it all given the chance. I don't care who it scares, if it makes the world a better place to live in then go ahead and cower in fear. Just don't expect me to come around passing out candy and cake because you don't agree with me.

[edit] I didn't twist his wording at all, I took his post (Completely in tact) and responded in the way I thought best addressed his question.

And how would you know that that isn’t what he was asking? How do you know for a fact that he was asking the same question you made him out to be asking? What I gather from it was that he is saying that their suicide is my choice, which it isn’t. Like I said, They choose to commit suicide while I choose to try and stop them, I don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

Nothing gives me the right to tell another person to live but myself, would you prefer I went around yelling “Go jump off a cliff” or “Slit your fucking throat”?

Consider this, If your sister (Assuming you have one) was the one trying to commit suicide, you would tell her “You can’t do this” wouldn’t you?

You’re right, nobody does choose their life, but as long as you have it you might as well live it am I wrong?

Fusion
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Mar 25, 2012 2:33 AM #621235

Bringing family relations into an argument is a bad idea because you're forcing subjectivity. You wouldn't tell her not to because she's your sister, you would tell her not to because she is not mortally wounded or deathly ill or a Buddhist in Saudi Arabia and so has something to live for.

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Mar 25, 2012 3:22 AM #621256

Quote from Fusion
Bringing family relations into an argument is a bad idea because you're forcing subjectivity. You wouldn't tell her not to because she's your sister, you would tell her not to because she is not mortally wounded or deathly ill or a Buddhist in Saudi Arabia and so has something to live for.

I feel that it is a perfect example because it gets people to think about how the loved ones of the person considering suicide feels. They feel the same exact way, honestly, how would you feel if one of your loved ones is considering suicide and somebody comes up and tells you; "What gives you the right to try and stop this person from killing themselves? Shame on you!"

I'd be pretty fuckin pissed

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Mar 25, 2012 5:18 AM #621312

Okay so its illegal to kill yourself, so unless you fail at suicide you should be safe from going to jail or paying a legal fine. But in all seriousness, I think that since its your life no one should tell you that you have to life if you dont want to live. Which is why for teens that are over lets say 15 when you can think for yourself the parents shouldnt be able to stop a painless humane death from a doctor giving that person a pill. Now if its from something senseless like someone being bullied then the parents should be in charge of letting teen live or die. For anyone over 18 then it doesnt matter because your an adult and should let you choose what to do and if they think its beneficial to kill themselves rather than live then so be it. I have no problem when someone kills themselves because it takes alot to die when your the one causing your own death

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Mar 25, 2012 5:32 AM #621321

Quote from Obcidien
Nothing gives me the right to tell another person to live but myself, would you prefer I went around yelling “Go jump off a cliff” or “Slit your fucking throat”?

Saying "You have a right to do what you want with your life. Do as you please" is very different from urging those to kill themselves. Note that we do not encourage it.

Quote from Obcidien
I feel that it is a perfect example because it gets people to think about how the loved ones of the person considering suicide feels. They feel the same exact way, honestly, how would you feel if one of your loved ones is considering suicide and somebody comes up and tells you; "What gives you the right to try and stop this person from killing themselves? Shame on you!"

I'd be pretty fuckin pissed

What if your family member was breathing through a tube, lying on a bed stained with their wastes and can't even enjoy the little things of life. And would you look at that a completely different situation. "What gives you the right to try to stop this person from killing themselves?" The answer is evident. The life of a family member is different from that of a complete stranger. You can't use this to generalise your entire point.

And how would you know that that isn’t what he was asking? How do you know for a fact that he was asking the same question you made him out to be asking? What I gather from it was that he is saying that their suicide is my choice, which it isn’t. Like I said, They choose to commit suicide while I choose to try and stop them, I don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

His analysis is correct. Considering that you still have not understood my point and made the connections which was clarified again for you, please re-read. Until you can give me a proper summary, refrain from posting. We realise it is the person's choice to kill themselves, but by stopping them, you are taking over this choice. Three times.

P.s. There are reasons for suicide other then depression.

Obcidien

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Mar 25, 2012 11:23 AM #621420

Ok, I get it, You people just don't really care about human life, that's cool. I didn't know that it was wrong to want a person to live but hey, you learn something new everyday.

It was a good argument guys, lots of fun, but as I'll never see it your way and you'll never see it my way, lets end it here and agree to disagree. :) I hope we can do it again, I've always been one for debates.

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Mar 25, 2012 2:47 PM #621520

Quote from Obcidien
Like I said, They choose to commit suicide while I choose to try and stop them, I don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

What gives you the right to stop them? Whatever reasons you have for believing they should continue living, why do you think those are more valid than their reasons for killing themselves? You haven't addressed this point yet. You haven't defending your beliefs at all.

For someone who is "one for debates" you sure do like appealing to emotion instead of actually addressing our arguments. As if you're the only one here who actually thinks suicide is an awful thing. I obviously don't want people to kill themselves, but I also don't want to deny someone their right to do it. It's selfish and arrogant to believe someone should do what you want them to do, and anything else is "unacceptable".

Fusion
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Mar 25, 2012 5:27 PM #621608

Quote from Obcidien
Ok, I get it, You people just don't really care about human life, that's cool. I didn't know that it was wrong to want a person to live but hey, you learn something new everyday.

Hello Straw Man. I can see you're already acquainted with Mr. Ad Hominem over here.

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Mar 25, 2012 8:57 PM #621789

Quote from Exilement
What gives you the right to stop them? Whatever reasons you have for believing they should continue living, why do you think those are more valid than their reasons for killing themselves? You haven't addressed this point yet. You haven't defending your beliefs at all.

For someone who is "one for debates" you sure do like appealing to emotion instead of actually addressing our arguments. As if you're the only one here who actually thinks suicide is an awful thing. I obviously don't want people to kill themselves, but I also don't want to deny someone their right to do it. It's selfish and arrogant to believe someone should do what you want them to do, and anything else is "unacceptable".

So I take it we aren't agreeing to disagree?

Why do I think it is more valid? I think that it is more valid simply because it prevents the loss of life, and I'm all for saving someones life.

What gives them the right to kill themselves? Regardless of who it is they are killing it is still killing, I'm sorry for believing that murder is wrong.

What gives me the right to stop them? Absolutely nothing, what gives murderers the right to murder? Absolutely nothing. The right to do it is in no way relevant to the situation, what is relevant is if it is right or wrong to do so.

If you really think suicide is an awful thing then you would be against it, instead you see it as "Oh hey, this guy wants to kill himself, whatever it's his right to do so."
You say you don't want people to kill themselves but you don't try to do anything to help them.

So call me selfish, call me arrogant, Yes I want people to do what I want them to do, but I never said that anything else is unacceptable.

And yeah I try to appeal to emotion more, because I feel that emotion is more powerful. you can argue with someone for years until they finally give up and play along with what you say, but if you can get your ideas stuck in someone at an emotional level then it will stick with them, it will influence them and it can change who they are entirely.

Also, another thing I'd like to point out is that yes, I would take away their rights if I had to, but unless they are beyond convincing I will talk with them and try to convince them that life is worth living. That isn't taking their "right" away, that is helping them to decide for themselves whether or not they truly want to exercise that "right". I wouldn't walk up to someone about to shoot themselves, slap the gun out of their hands and then cuss them out, where would that get me? I may have stopped them right then but I only just reinforced their determination to die later.

I've actually been defending my believes this entire time, the only reason I've been repeating the same point is because you haven't been changing the argument. Everything was "What gives you the right?" and several times I answered that nothing does. I hope this time you actually notice it and decide that this argument really isn't worth arguing anymore.

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Mar 25, 2012 9:01 PM #621791

Quote from Fusion
Hello Straw Man. I can see you're already acquainted with Mr. Ad Hominem over here.

It was an exaggeration, the accusations I've made I made simply because they don't show that they do care, I don't honestly believe that they have no regard for human life nor was I serious when I said it.

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Mar 25, 2012 11:01 PM #621856

Quote from Fusion
Hello Straw Man. I can see you're already acquainted with Mr. Ad Hominem over here.

Oh-ho! Someone's been reading the 'logical fallacies' thread!

Fusion
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Mar 25, 2012 11:43 PM #621908

For your information, I already knew those two!

You're such a butthead, Jeff.

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Mar 26, 2012 12:15 AM #621930

the Logical fallacies thread will be helpful, I already knew about Straw Man and Ad Hominem but there were several others that I now realize I use.

Jeff
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Mar 26, 2012 12:17 AM #621932

Quote from Fusion
For your information, I already knew those two!

You're such a butthead, Jeff.

then let me mouthfuck you it would be like killing two birds with one stone