index, just the moment that you educate yourself on God. once again someone telling me to learn more but not telling me what i said that was so wrong. comment on the exact subject of my post instead of telling me to read up and get back to you in month.

automaton, your not getting my point. none of the organisms would have the ability to do that without God setting them up too! every way the changed and evolved wouldnt have come out right with out a plan.

preserve, a snow flake is way to different to compare to our entire design. snow flakes dont have heart beats and brains and opinions. those were granted to us by God.

heard or seen, it doesnt matter because those people werent crazy and they wouldnt have just imagined it. when my father was thinking of divorcing my mother God spoke to him in a clear voice as good as you could hear anyone else speaking. anyways this thread doesnt mean much to me because 1. the big bang is a theory not a fact and it will never be proven as anything else because its just a possibility (and i only say its a possibility so i wont get people bitching about me insulting there scientitists). 2. i believe in God and trying to convince you people he exists is hammering on cold metal.

fusion, thats so ironic that your complaining about flamming and then agreeing with the people that did it to me. geez im taking on like everyone in this forum! any christians or something out there to help me out?

Quote from dabigE13

fusion, thats so ironic that your complaining about flamming and then agreeing with the people that did it to me. geez im taking on like everyone in this forum! any christians or something out there to help me out?

That's not ironic. You really have said things in this thread so far that are pretty rude, for instance, insisting that atheists only believe what they do because they are afraid of the repercussions of their actions, as well as making big assumptions about our personal lives by assuming that we haven't been religious before.

It's ignorant of you to suggest that Evolution isn't true. Evolution is a fact, and if you don't think so, then you're just wrong. It's not a debatable topic that genetic code tends to change over successive generations, because it has literally been observed before. Scientists have literally put organisms in a closed system and watched them develop new species.
You're also being ignorant when you respond to people and make claims without justifying them in any way; for instance in your latest post you say that '...those people wouldn't have just imagined it.' Why wouldn't they? People imagine things all the time.
You're also being ignorant and rude at the same time when you enter a conversation, say things that are in direct opposition to what other people are fairly sure is true, and ignore many of the things they say. It's ignorant to do this because no one who was not ignorant would think this is an acceptable thing to do in a debate, and it's rude for reasons I think are fairly obvious.

When someone says you're being an "idiot", they mean you are being ignorant and senseless, and you're being both of those things right now. When someone says you are being a "dick", they mean you are being rude to an unacceptable degree, and you are.

Quote from Fusion

Insisting that atheists only believe what they do because they are afraid of the repercussions of their actions.

Now THAT'S ironic.

Quote from dabigE13

index, just the moment that you educate yourself on God. once again someone telling me to learn more but not telling me what i said that was so wrong. comment on the exact subject of my post instead of telling me to read up and get back to you in month.

If you posted in a thread on quantum mechanics and described a magical process as an alternative, should someone have to respond explaining exactly what is wrong in your post? In my opinion, they have every right to say "read up about quantum mechanics". It's blatantly obvious that you didn't know much about evolution, so telling you to simply read up on it isn't unnecessary, it's the most simple thing to do, rather than writing a page-long post about why you're wrong and what evolution actually is.

automaton, your not getting my point. none of the organisms would have the ability to do that without God setting them up too! every way the changed and evolved wouldnt have come out right with out a plan.

The organisms did evolve that way without a god. You're acting as if evolution is impossible without guidance, which is NOT true. If you read the link I posted before and the 2 videos someone else linked you'll be able to find out why this is the case. So I disagree with you completely there.

heard or seen, it doesnt matter because those people werent crazy and they wouldnt have just imagined it. when my father was thinking of divorcing my mother God spoke to him in a clear voice as good as you could hear anyone else speaking.

You know what's strange is that in 9/10 occasions of religious experiences that I've studied, the person was going through some sort of emotional period in their lives (e.g. relatives at war, divorcing, loss of a loved one). Your example fits this generalisation. What's more likely, that a god of which there is no evidence communicated with your father, or that the emotional grief of a divorce got to him and caused him to hallucinate (hallucinations can be via audio). Religious experiences prove NOTHING. I've had a religious experience before, when I was a christian. I believed it to be god then, now I realise it was my mind.

anyways this thread doesnt mean much to me because 1. the big bang is a theory not a fact and it will never be proven as anything else because its just a possibility (and i only say its a possibility so i wont get people bitching about me insulting there scientitists)

The big bang theory is currently the best explanation for the start of the universe, and it's been demonstrated as fact via the empirical evidence of the universe currently expanding, and via the background radiation of the universe.

. 2. i believe in God and trying to convince you people he exists is hammering on cold metal.

Irrelevant, we could say the same about convincing you of his non-existence. Debates should be about learning, not winning. If the only reason you're here is to convince us that god is real then you have completely the wrong mindset.

I, Kveyo Jewishperson, have first hand proof and evidence that God does exist.

Quote from dabigE13

automaton, your not getting my point. none of the organisms would have the ability to do that without God setting them up too! every way the changed and evolved wouldnt have come out right with out a plan.

WHY? I'm still waiting for you to answer this question. Simply saying it is doesn't work. WHY IS IT THERE A NEED FOR A GOD TO EXIST IN ORDER FOR ORGANISMS TO HAVE THESE CERTAIN ABILITIES?

preserve, a snow flake is way to different to compare to our entire design. snow flakes dont have heart beats and brains and opinions. those were granted to us by God.

So humans are more complex. That doesn't invalidate my analogy.

heard or seen, it doesnt matter because those people werent crazy and they wouldnt have just imagined it. when my father was thinking of divorcing my mother God spoke to him in a clear voice as good as you could hear anyone else speaking. anyways this thread doesnt mean much to me because

Again, just saying "they couldn't have imagined it" doesn't make it true. You actually have to provide a reason. You might as well believe in alien abduction stories.

1. the big bang is a theory not a fact and it will never be proven as anything else because its just a possibility (and i only say its a possibility so i wont get people bitching about me insulting there scientitists).

Just because something is not yet "fact", that doesn't mean it is false or that it won't one day be a fact. You should really study these things before saying things are or are not facts.

fusion, thats so ironic that your complaining about flamming and then agreeing with the people that did it to me. geez im taking on like everyone in this forum! any christians or something out there to help me out?

Maybe you should try to be more open-minded and trying to understand your opponents instead of worrying about someone else to help you.

ITT: little kids who havent taken biology class yet (primarily dabigE13)

Quote from Preserve

WHY? I'm still waiting for you to answer this question. Simply saying it is doesn't work. WHY IS IT THERE A NEED FOR A GOD TO EXIST IN ORDER FOR ORGANISMS TO HAVE THESE CERTAIN ABILITIES?



So humans are more complex. That doesn't invalidate my analogy.



Again, just saying "they couldn't have imagined it" doesn't make it true. You actually have to provide a reason. You might as well believe in alien abduction stories.



Just because something is not yet "fact", that doesn't mean it is false or that it won't one day be a fact. You should really study these things before saying things are or are not facts.



Maybe you should try to be more open-minded and trying to understand your opponents instead of worrying about someone else to help you.

why not explaining how it could work! how could organisms randomley develope these abilities without a creator. and dont tell me to go read, i know that you can put cells in a room and see them evolve but God made them do that.

humans are way more complex. please think about it if your going to use an example. let me ask you something, would it be easier to make a human or a snowflake? your example was pointless.

really? just because i havent seen or heard them personally doesnt mean it doesnt exist. will you remind me again of the time when you personally saw the world being created with a big bang? oh right! no ones ever seen that.

it will never be a fact because it doesnt exist. i was only mentioning all the people telling me to research the big bang because they need to actually comment on the situation instead of just telling me to go read about it for myself. this is a debate on the existence of God over the big bang. that means i could just as easily say go read the bible and then magically win the debate.

its not about having a closed mind its about being strong in my opinion. i was just stating that this forum seems to be made up entirely of atheists and feels useless when YOU people are not open-minded.

kveyo- ohhhhh i see. so the public school system is who raised you.

Quote from dabigE13

why not explaining how it could work! how could organisms randomley develope these abilities without a creator. and dont tell me to go read, i know that you can put cells in a room and see them evolve but God made them do that.

humans are way more complex. please think about it if your going to use an example. let me ask you something, would it be easier to make a human or a snowflake? your example was pointless.

really? just because i havent seen or heard them personally doesnt mean it doesnt exist. will you remind me again of the time when you personally saw the world being created with a big bang? oh right! no ones ever seen that.

it will never be a fact because it doesnt exist. i was only mentioning all the people telling me to research the big bang because they need to actually comment on the situation instead of just telling me to go read about it for myself. this is a debate on the existence of God over the big bang. that means i could just as easily say go read the bible and then magically win the debate.

its not about having a closed mind its about being strong in my opinion. i was just stating that this forum seems to be made up entirely of atheists and feels useless when YOU people are not open-minded.

kveyo- ohhhhh i see. so the public school system is who raised you.

I agree with Dabig here. In simple terms:
-----
Atheist: Have you seen God?
Christian: No
Atheist: Have you touched God?
Christian: No
Atheist: Then God doesn't exist

Christian: Have you seen the creation of the universe?
Atheist: No
Christian: Do you have a logical explanation why the big bang occured?
Atheist: No
Christian: Then don't judge quickly if you don't know. It's just a theory, you have yours and we have ours. Science has nothing to do with belief and God is wisely hidden from the eyes of Science :3

Quote from Jombo

Fordz I'm not sure you know what Atheism even is. Or what the word "theory" is. It might be best to stop now.

But to contribute to the thread, Atheism isn't believing in the big bang theory or evolution, it's simply the lack in belief of God. Atheists tend to rely on scientific facts and evidence to support their beliefs. That's why most Athiests tend to believe in evolution and the big bang theory, because there is a lot of evidence supporting it. It is not a voodoo concept that someone just made up. Saying "well it's just a theory" is retarded. Theories like evolution are well accepted among pretty much all scientists, evolution has plenty of material supporting it that it's essentially true. Do your homework.


You do need to read. You obviously haven't researched enough about this topic to know what you're talking about. Not reading about it is being ignorant and close-minded on your part. Everyone else in this thread will read any evidence you post supporting your argument, if you ever offer any. This doesn't mean opinions or life experiences. You don't belong in this thread if your refuse to research the other side's argument.

ive read mainly on the bible and thats where most of my studying has been done, not the big bang. that parts true. but why i said that was because this is almost the only thing theyre contributing to the argument. theyre basicly pushing me aside and saying "no your not smart enough yet. go read so you can be as smart as us". when they're the ones that havent read enough on my side of the argument, the bible.
so once you can come to me with the long dedicated research youve done with the bible. then ill read about your scientific theories.

by the way fords, thank you thats a good point!

Many people were raised in a religious household and then became atheists through their own will. Don't assume that everyone here is completely ignorant about your religious teachings.

People here are arguing things objectively, so don't get but hurt if they disagree with your personal ideology and your "reasoning". If you are going to get personal about things and ignore logic, clearly you are in the wrong place.

Quote from Jombo

dabigE13: That makes little sense. You're purposely hindering your argument by refusing to read about their argument, under the assumption that they haven't researched it. Plenty of people here have considerable knowledge of the bible. You can't assume they know nothing about it because they don't believe in it. It's still a fault on your part, since you're the only person refusing to research anything.

did you pay any attention to what i said? i wasnt refusing to read about there side of the argument. i was saying there only argument is to go read! theyre not debating theyre telling me im not as smart as them. im replying with that they might not have the knowledge i have of the bible just as i dont have the knowledge they have with the alternative. i havent studied much on the big bang but i know the basics behind it.
it started from one point and began expanding. and people believe that because planets and stars and shit are still expanding today. and atoms and organisms are still evolving today. but there is no actual proof that it started out of no where. maybe there was a big bang! maybe thats what God creating the earth was! but saying it came out of no where is completely illogical.
and once again i have no problem with researching the opposing side. i just dont want that to be everyones only argument, other wise im just arguing with wikipedia.

You want proof that the big bang started but you don't need proof for the existence of god. Does this seem somewhat wrong?

You take an oversimplified view of the big bang theory, and you can't claim that it is "illogical" on such basis. (By the way, basics does not mean a single definition) It is as if a 3 year denies that 1 + 1 = 2 because they just don't understand it. In the past, people thought that the world was flat and it was apparently stupid to consider it as spherical. However with an understanding of it, people accepted the fact that their past thoughts were wrong. You are taking an emotional position and are trying to find facts (well more of assumption) that support what you believe and rejecting other alternatives. That is the wrong way to approach such a discussion. Don't jam puzzle pieces in places that they don't belong.

The others do not want to explain to you why your reasoning is false because it is clear that it won't get anywhere. Perhaps reading it from an unbiased source will change your mind.

Quote from dabigE13

did you pay any attention to what i said? i wasnt refusing to read about there side of the argument. i was saying there only argument is to go read! theyre not debating theyre telling me im not as smart as them. im replying with that they might not have the knowledge i have of the bible just as i dont have the knowledge they have with the alternative. i havent studied much on the big bang but i know the basics behind it.
it started from one point and began expanding. and people believe that because planets and stars and shit are still expanding today. and atoms and organisms are still evolving today. but there is no actual proof that it started out of no where. maybe there was a big bang! maybe thats what God creating the earth was! but saying it came out of no where is completely illogical.
and once again i have no problem with researching the opposing side. i just dont want that to be everyones only argument, other wise im just arguing with wikipedia.

>i havent studied much on the big bang but i know the basics behind it.
>started from one point and everything started expanding

not the basics bro. that is what a 12 year old would summarize the big bang as

>and people believe that because planets and stars and shit are still expanding today. and atoms and organisms are still evolving today.

"i know the basics" "atoms and organisms are still evolving today" , organisms are not evolving right now. organisms evolve over THOUSANDS, even millions of years.


>maybe there was a big bang! maybe thats what God creating the earth was!

implying that the Earth was the first ever planet in the Universe, and was the starting point of every single other planet and galaxy out there

come on kid. fallacies everywhere

Quote from Jombo

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not here to talk about my beliefs or take any side, but I've noticed that since people are telling you to read about it more, it may be a sign that you aren't reading about it enough. It's a way of saying "I've described this so many times before, it's not worth describing again". It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know about either topics. If you can find something from an outside source that you're skeptical about, you can explain why here. The main thing is to stay open-minded, and this goes for everyone.

yes and i can understand that as well, and truthfully it was almost a personal annoyance to be told i need to be more educated on the subject to be a liable debater when i knew i was educated already. from my point of view i had learned enough about the basics to place my opinion of it being illogical.

kvevo- if thats the twelve year olds summary then give me your adult, educated summary please.

someone mentioned that organisms could still evolve or something like this so i was just basing it off that. it was more focused on people speaking of atoms and such.

i ment the universe as well. ill admit to that being a bit of my ass talking and wasnt thought out perfectly but i ment the universe.... kid.