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Started by: CRAZY JAY | Replies: 2,627 | Views: 253,026 | Sticky

Skeletonxf
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Jan 23, 2015 7:47 PM #1298790
Infernoes can be used to ignore an enemy archer mass of any size. It's not so much broken as just annoying and bad gameplay.

Thing is, when I'm playing order against ele I don't need to buy any tanks in the first place because I outrange everything.
BloodxHunter
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Jan 24, 2015 4:50 AM #1298913
I think order and ele CAs should be reversed. Thoughts?
spino

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Jan 24, 2015 11:15 AM #1299013
Quote from BloodxHunter
I think order and ele CAs should be reversed. Thoughts?


What does that mean is a though...
BBKing5
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Jan 24, 2015 11:19 AM #1299017
>.> Castle Air and Castle Archer are too op...


Teh damn Air can hit almost at tower on castle map.. nerf the range.... that really pissed me off

also Archer is ok except for the damn damage we get. 3 hit CA kill him. decrese a little pleasE?
Skeletonxf
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Jan 24, 2015 11:59 AM #1299038
I think the order 2 and CA should have splash damage nerfed a bit. Ele CA should 3 hit archers - but not before ele doesn't need CAir to EvO.
_Ai_
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Jan 24, 2015 2:31 PM #1299115
Quote from BBKing5
>.> Castle Air and Castle Archer are too op...


Teh damn Air can hit almost at tower on castle map.. nerf the range.... that really pissed me off

also Archer is ok except for the damn damage we get. 3 hit CA kill him. decrese a little pleasE?


CArcher, CDead, CAir can all reach the tower on castle because the castle is ridiculously short, so your point is invalid.

CArcher has splash damage, CAir has absolute target (you know, not being able to tank and shiz) and it needs to has more damage than the normal air, so.
Deadpan Serious

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Jan 24, 2015 7:10 PM #1299196
it may be because i'm in the 1400 to 1500 rating range, but almost every opponent i face makes heavy use of Speartons, wether that's a Spearton Rush, Spearton wall at the Pillar with Ghost Giant, Spearchers, or a defensive Spearton mass that ignores all tough units and rushes after every soft target. compared to those, any other strategy seems rare.

so could we please nerf Speartons?

i'm also struggling to find a good counter (at least one that's fun to play and works on large maps), as Swords can't be built fast enough; Giants and Albowtrosses are too slow, so you could only ever defend, because as soon as you move out, they just run right past them; and Ninja's are suicidal and can only properly be used as assassins, or as a Shadomass -- against Speartons you'd have to relentlessly hit-and-run them, but the Ninjas' suicidal AI makes that just...really undoable. you WILL forget to [shift]+[H] at least once every battle, or some of your Ninjas will have already arived at the targeted area and not accept the Hold order or some such, and just once can be game over if you lose several of them.
you could do a pure Ninja mass (so you never have to select anything else) on a large map ... but i'm sorry but mass-vs-mass is a waste of the strategic depth of this game. this would reduce options on a large map to Spearton mass or Ninja mass. it's also very difficult to pull off, as Ninjas are more expensive and much more micro-dependant.

and while economic harassment can counter the Spearton mass on small maps, on large maps your Swords will be neutered by Archers or CA, and your Archers will face Speartons. this scenario will lead to a situation where the person that can pump out the most Speartons wins, which is exactly the problem.

* i suggest, first of all, that Hold Position is a remembered attitude for units, so you have to click [H] again to undo it. this is dreadfully necessary if you ask me. or at least move the hotkey to [Z] so i can [shift]+[Z] more easily. or make Hold Position the default for Ninjas. anything that will stop them from suiciding.

* secondly, i would suggest an upgrade for the Swordwrath that reduces their build-time. maybe it would cost 100&100 g&m, so it's not really for early game, but it will allow an acquirable way to deal with a Spearton mass. i never see succesful Swordmasses, and if any is done it's certainly in early game, so that shoudn't be a problem.

* another thing i'd like is requiring an upgrade before your Spearton has that kind of speed. at least there'd be a reason for the racing armor.

i like Speartons, it's just the Spearton masses that i'm tired of seeing.
jerrytt
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Jan 24, 2015 7:44 PM #1299217
There are many ways to deal with speartons, both before and after they are massed. For example, I notice in your post you have not made a single mention of archers, which are great ways to prevent the spearton massing from even occuring. Using a large amount of archers with a spearton or two in front to tank arrows is a great way to whittle down their speartons and prevent them from massing. You will need to know how to kite though, which is a basic skill hat all players should know. Check the strategy forums for a guide on that.

Speartons en masse can be stopped by a combination of walls, speartons in shield formation, castle archers, and magikill. Magikill can easily destroy large amounts of speartons with their AOE spells.
Nyarlathotep

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Jan 24, 2015 9:36 PM #1299252
A switch into albows or giants can really shut down speartons aswell if you know what you're doing.
Deadpan Serious

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Jan 24, 2015 9:37 PM #1299253
sorry for starting a balance discussion here, but yes i know about kiting, and yes i can stop a Spearton rush with palasides and such. but if your enemy isn't stupid, you're gonna need to attack at some point. if you use mages, they either just rush in to kill the mage, or rush passed to attack your statue or palasides. same with giants and albows, like i already pointed out.

you also suggested using a large number of Archers to counter Speartons, while i'm pretty sure Speartons counter Archers, not the other way around.
while you can kite them, if you had any Merics, those are gone now, and your Giants or Albows are out of range now. basically everything else comes to a halt, while you'll be kiting for a long time. which means you can't effectively mix this with other units, so this is essentially countering Spearchers with Spearchers.

thanks for the suggestions, but i should have made more clear that i talked about countering Speartons to explain my suggestion of a Swordwrath build-time upgrade. (that post was a bit cluttered 'cause i had to rewrite the whole thing)
Phaxtolgia
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Jan 24, 2015 10:36 PM #1299265
Poke down spears with packs of archers to prevent them from massing. If they already massed them somehow, just use magikills (I suggest up to 2 or 3.)
MasterKaito
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Jan 24, 2015 11:42 PM #1299276
Swords w/ Rage > Speartons
Swords w/ Rage Statue Rush > Spearton Mass Statue Rush
>Bug<
Tanks in front of wall, cannot target wall (eg. 6 spears in front of wall with sheild / bash, or 2-3+ giants around middle)
~When attacking base, use spearton to shield and tank CA
######
Turtle > Spear Mass
- CA 2
- 20 Miner Population
- 1 Mage
- Resilience
- Giants
- 2 healers
~ ^AT LEAST (for spear mass counter)


hope this helped
Deadpan Serious

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Jan 25, 2015 1:01 AM #1299287
yes thanks. but again, i wasn't looking for tips. my bad, i worded it like that because i closed the browser-tab (i had multiple tabs open, and this interferes with [ctrl]+[number] working in game) so i had to rewrite everything.

i meant just to suggest an upgrade for Swordwraths' build time, so you can counter-mass them, which currently you really can't as you can only create 5 Swords in the same time it takes to make 3 Spears, and 3 Spears will beat 5 Swords. so if you need to mass Swords when you notice a Spear mass...it just takes too freakin long to get enough of them. not to mention i won't be able to build Spears of my own, or Ninjas meanwhile.

the whole "can't beat Speartons" paragraph was just to explain how that upgrade would help. it was supposed to come after the suggestion.
MasterKaito
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Jan 25, 2015 5:05 AM #1299345
um you can make swords way faster than him early game
never start making swords when he has 3 speartons
Deadpan Serious

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Jan 25, 2015 1:34 PM #1299483
not really a counter then. it'd be nice to have other options than full defence, massing speartons, or rushing with swords (and losing them to CA).
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