I think rage effect and speed was over-nerfed. It's not even using rage anymore once you have it because the health cost isn't worth the power up.

In order vs order it is now a useless effect. You're better off spending the 50 mana on an earlier spearton and disrupting economy. Moreover, swordwraths no longer have a role either mid or late-game, only early game. Not really worth ever building more than 2-3 the whole game.

Haven't tried vs Chaos yet, but I suspect it is similarly useless.

Lost 3 games in a row to newbies thinking swords beat speartons, but they don't anymore. Any time rage comes on, just run away....swords either retreat to heal, giving up tower, or chase again until the have no health left. You can maybe get two hits in before you have to retreat the whole army.

Quote from MiamiBigAL

After much testing, I think I can conclusively say the rage nerf has extremely upset the balance between Order and Chaos. The major difference is that Chaos can get an extra miner right at the start and still harrass the hell out of Order's miners without much consequence. The 3 total miner, 2 crawler start puts chaos 50% ahead economically for almost the same amount of benefit--order will get middle tower for a short time, but chaos will harass the hell out of miners. The only thing that eventually swung things back into order's direction was the 50 gold 50 mana rage upgrade, which is now impossible to get until one round of miner gold, by which it is too late.

Things were already in favour of Chaos before the rage nerf; but now it's just impossible to beat a decent chaos player.

Essentially, you need to make it so that the 200 gold chaos spends on crawlers has a proportionate less of an effect than the 300 order has to spend on swords. At the moment this is not balanced at all, due to the fact that Chaos can grab an extra miner right from the start and still do crippling amounts of damage to Order.

So, as I interpret it, the problem seems to be that rage was the only thing that let order have a chance in the early game. Otherwise Chaos dominates. Therefore, the increased rage cost detrimented Order even more.

Therefore suggestions were made to make rage cheaper again.
It has come, but with a significant nerf.

The underlying problem is not rage. 100 gold and 50 mana, with the 6.5 second upgrade, was fine.
The underlying problem is that Chaos is overpowered (both in the beginning, and the late stages).

Chaos' dominance in early game is something I personally blame on the Juggerknight > Spearton imbalance, and also the passive healing abilities given to every Chaos troop.

It's easy to manipulate the crawlers' superior speed and passive healing to force a winning advantage against the current options Order has.
Juggerknight < Spearton imbalance just tops it off.

Make passive healing something that needs to be purchased. 100/150 mana, or somesuch figure.

Quote from PsychoticCheez

Chaos' dominance in early game is something I personally blame on the Juggerknight > Spearton imbalance, and also the passive healing abilities given to every Chaos troop.

I love how you continue to call the Juggerknight vs Spearton unbalanced. The Juggerknight will walk away from a 1 on 1 fight, with less than 5% health.
Chaos has no medics, so it has the passive healing to make up for it. The healing ability is a flat rate that's the same through all of the units, so on something like say, giants or Juggerknights. It's almost useless in anything more than a short skirmish near the middle of the game.

Quote from Tecness2

I love how you continue to call the Juggerknight vs Spearton unbalanced. The Juggerknight will walk away from a 1 on 1 fight, with less than 5% health.

Two units cost exactly the same, and have exactly the same build time, and consume exactly the same amount of population. All else being equal, one is guaranteed a win, every single time.
We must have different definitions of "unbalanced" here ...

Resources in the beginning are scarce enough that this "less than 5% health" Juggerknight will make all the difference.

Quote from Tecness2

Chaos has no medics, so it has the passive healing to make up for it.

The issue is that the passive healing is too strong in early game.

It is not almost useless. It is huge. The game is over before merics come into play anyway. Besides, Merics take up population, resources, and are easily killed. Passive healing takes up no population and no resources and is invincible. That is also a huge advantage of passive healing. Give me passive healing over merics any day.

Also, juggerknight has charge, which is actually useful instead of the spearton's practically useless abilities.

Rage has been overly nerfed now. What we really need in order to START addressing the balance is 600 starting gold instead of 500. The biggest problem is the extra miner that Chaos has. That completely upset the balance.

Quote from PsychoticCheez

Two units cost exactly the same, and have exactly the same build time, and consume exactly the same amount of population. All else being equal, one is guaranteed a win, every single time.
We must have different definitions of "unbalanced" here ...

Resources in the beginning are scarce enough that this "less than 5% health" Juggerknight will make all the difference.



The issue is that the passive healing is too strong in early game.

You're right, we do. You think, two DIFFERENT UNITS should do the exact same because they cost the same. Let's do another example from a shooter game! I like shooter games. A sniper rifle, say costs 25,000 in game points. An assault rifle, costs 23,000 points and 2,000 points for a scope. You think, they are going to do the exact same because they cost the same? No. They have different stats and are good in their own field. Don't like that? Let's go to Starcraft 2 then. 100 Minerals will get you 1 Zealot, 2 Marines, or 4 Zerglings. With enough control, those two marines could take BOTH enemies at once. With a good enough placement, that one zealot could kill all 4 zerglings. If those zerglings catch one marine off guard, they could kill all 4, but those are all highly conditional.

5%, which a miner could most likely kill him.

No, crawlers just have so little health, that it heals them quicker. Say the heal does 10 health per 3 seconds, and the crawler has 60 health. Well of course it's going to be good on the crawler, compared to the Juggerknight which has about 500(random number). I would gladly trade the Wingadon, or Skeleton Mage, & the passive healing ability for a Meric.

Quote from MiamiBigAL

Also, juggerknight has charge, which is actually useful instead of the spearton's practically useless abilities.

Rage has been overly nerfed now. What we really need in order to START addressing the balance is 600 starting gold instead of 500. The biggest problem is the extra miner that Chaos has. That completely upset the balance.

Not that useless, it's great if you are put on the defensive, but it would be better if units couldn't run past the spearton in shield wall form.
So, you want chaos to start with 3 crawlers and 2 miners. Then you'll start complaining about the starting gold!

Not that useless? Your argument is that it's not that useless? If that's what it is then I rest my case.

Juggerknight/Spearton should be equal since they cost the same. Don't tell me you would trade charge for either of the Spearton's abilities.

I already complained about the starting gold. What do you mean "start" complaining? two swords on 3 crawlers is a lot better than 1 sword on two crawlers, that's for sure.

Quote from MiamiBigAL

Not that useless? Your argument is that it's not that useless? If that's what it is then I rest my case.

Juggerknight/Spearton should be equal since they cost the same. Don't tell me you would trade charge for either of the Spearton's abilities.

I already complained about the starting gold. What do you mean "start" complaining? two swords on 3 crawlers is a lot better than 1 sword on two crawlers, that's for sure.

Almost every ability, that needs to be used, is situational.
No, they should be CLOSE to equal, which they are.

So, your two swords, vs three crawlers. How fast would your miners die from three crawlers? In one post, you said and I quote:

Quote from MiamiBigAL

Swordsrath are just useless against them. Crawlers have no need to engage swordwraths

So, since there is now 3 crawlers, and 2 swordwrath, the crawlers now have to attack the swordwrath? Personally, I'd prefer the enemy start with two crawlers, my miners now have a small chance.

Quote from RUMMAKER

Shield bash is situational, charge ain't

Charge against giants. Charge against air units. Charge against shield-walling Speartons, who can shield-bash the Juggerknights AFTER the charge, and in turn, stun them and attack them instead. Charge against bombers.

Quote from Tecness2

You're right, we do. You think, two DIFFERENT UNITS should do the exact same because they cost the same. Let's do another example from a shooter game! I like shooter games. A sniper rifle, say costs 25,000 in game points. An assault rifle, costs 23,000 points and 2,000 points for a scope. You think, they are going to do the exact same because they cost the same? No. They have different stats and are good in their own field. Don't like that? Let's go to Starcraft 2 then. 100 Minerals will get you 1 Zealot, 2 Marines, or 4 Zerglings. With enough control, those two marines could take BOTH enemies at once. With a good enough placement, that one zealot could kill all 4 zerglings. If those zerglings catch one marine off guard, they could kill all 4, but those are all highly conditional.

Alright, tell me your definition of "unbalanced" in the context of this game, so we can start thinking on the same wavelength?

Your analogies are just plain wrong. A sniper and assault rifle serve completely different purposes. Their equal cost is rationalized by the fact that their strengths and weaknesses are balanced.
Same with your Starcraft analogy. Like you said, the conditions to give one side a win will be highly conditional. This means each unit will each have their strengths in certain situations, whilst having weaknesses in others.

It's an invalid analogy because the Spearton and Juggerknight serve the same role in both armies.
Juggerknights cost the same as Speartons, they perform the same roles, but the Juggerknight beats the Spearton in EVERY aspect.

Quote from Tecness2

5%, which a miner could most likely kill him.

Ahh, so you'll send a miner to chase after a Juggerknight?

You're ranked so high up, you can't possibly be suggesting that this Juggerknight attack with just 5% health?
Your arguments for Order and Chaos being balanced assume that the Chaos player in question has the IQ of a lemon.

It's not hard to see how one extra Juggerknight at even 1% health can make a significant difference.

Quote from Tecness2

No, crawlers just have so little health, that it heals them quicker. Say the heal does 10 health per 3 seconds, and the crawler has 60 health. Well of course it's going to be good on the crawler, compared to the Juggerknight which has about 500(random number). I would gladly trade the Wingadon, or Skeleton Mage, & the passive healing ability for a Meric.

I'm aware of that. The issue is that crawlers are able of harassing Order's infantry, and their superior speed means they dictate when the battle ends, and when they can recharge.
If Order's infantry holds it's ground, they'll have a rematch with Chaos' infantry once again, however the crawlers are now back at full health. Oh and look there's more coming for the party. Order is lost already.

Quote from Tecness2

Not that useless, it's great if you are put on the defensive, but it would be better if units couldn't run past the spearton in shield wall form.

Give me a situation, just one situation, in which Speartons using their shield wall ability (as compared to not) will turn the tide of a battle.

Quote from PsychoticCheez

Alright, tell me your definition of "unbalanced" in the context of this game, so we can start thinking on the same wavelength?

Your analogies are just plain wrong. A sniper and assault rifle serve completely different purposes. Their equal cost is rationalized by the fact that their strengths and weaknesses are balanced.
Same with your Starcraft analogy. Like you said, the conditions to give one side a win will be highly conditional. This means each unit will each have their strengths in certain situations, whilst having weaknesses in others.

It's an invalid analogy because the Spearton and Juggerknight serve the same role in both armies.
Juggerknights cost the same as Speartons, they perform the same roles, but the Juggerknight beats the Spearton in EVERY aspect.



Ahh, so you'll send a miner to chase after a Juggerknight?

You're ranked so high up, you can't possibly be suggesting that this Juggerknight attack with just 5% health?
Your arguments for Order and Chaos being balanced assume that the Chaos player in question has the IQ of a lemon.

It's not hard to see how one extra Juggerknight at even 1% health can make a significant difference.



I'm aware of that. The issue is that crawlers are able of harassing Order's infantry, and their superior speed means they dictate when the battle ends, and when they can recharge.
If Order's infantry holds it's ground, they'll have a rematch with Chaos' infantry once again, however the crawlers are now back at full health. Oh and look there's more coming for the party. Order is lost already.



Give me a situation, just one situation, in which Speartons using their shield wall ability (as compared to not) will turn the tide of a battle.

I can't think of anything in this current stage of the game that is completely unbalanced. But, in the campaign, you could research items instantly. That was unbalanced.
Exactly. The Spearton serves as a defensive unit, the Juggerknight serves as an offensive unit. One is the Shield, One is the sword....err Axe in this case.
As I've said, The Juggerknight has a higher damage and a slightly higher health(I think so on this one) as well as a slower attack speed. The spearton, as a lower damage, higher armor, and a higher attack speed.

Why send a miner to chase the Juggerknight, when you can send him to attack it WITH the spearton? Or hey, even a swordwrath! A swordwrath with rage would EASILY catch up and take down a Juggerknight right after an encounter with a spearton.

Castle archer would easily kill all the crawlers and only minimal losses to order.

Okay, 6 Speartons, 6 Archidons, 2 walls, 2 Magikill, 3 Merics Vs 4 Giants. Hey! Guess what! The Archidons did considerable damage, while the spearton's tanked it because they have a 40% damage reduction! And then the Speartons ran in, and killed off the remaining giants. Ask CrazyJay, Ask Brock, As Crimshock, ask a lot of people who have seen my late-game order. I utilize shield-wall and shield-bash to a considerable effect and it is relatively ​un-beatable.

Quote from Tecness2

I can't think of anything in this current stage of the game that is completely unbalanced. But, in the campaign, you could research items instantly. That was unbalanced.

You've given an example and not a definition; could I have a definition?

Quote from Tecness2

Exactly. The Spearton serves as a defensive unit, the Juggerknight serves as an offensive unit. One is the Shield, One is the sword....err Axe in this case.

The Spearton's effectiveness as a defensive unit doesn't match the Juggerknight's ability as an offensive unit. The shield (push?) ability is only effective if the opponent chooses to directly engage the shield-walled Speartons. Otherwise the attack's range is too small.
Compare this to the Juggerknight's charge ability. It is guaranteed to hit an opponent in front. Oh, and you can attack whilst doing it. To utilize the shield bash you need to be not even attacking.

When we also consider that a Juggerknight against a Spearton results in a win for the Juggerknight (something you've not addressed), this tips the balance is Chaos' favour even further.

Quote from Tecness2

Why send a miner to chase the Juggerknight, when you can send him to attack it WITH the spearton? Or hey, even a swordwrath! A swordwrath with rage would EASILY catch up and take down a Juggerknight right after an encounter with a spearton.

Castle archer would easily kill all the crawlers and only minimal losses to order.

So not only will you be getting a Spearton, you'll also be researching rage, and obtaining a swordwrath?

Whilst this Chaos player has just one Juggerknight? Again, can we please not assume the opponent has the IQ of a lemon. What is this Chaos player doing with the extra gold and extra time?

And why are we assuming that the Juggerknight will keep the swordwrath alive for the whole duration of the battle? Again, we assume our opponents are lemons.

The castle archer costs. When we consider the small income we have in the beginning, this is not a "minimal" loss to Order, and if it is, this "minimal" loss is unbalanced towards Chaos.

Quote from Tecness2

Okay, 6 Speartons, 6 Archidons, 2 walls, 2 Magikill, 3 Merics Vs 4 Giants. Hey! Guess what! The Archidons did considerable damage, while the spearton's tanked it because they have a 40% damage reduction! And then the Speartons ran in, and killed off the remaining giants. Ask CrazyJay, Ask Brock, As Crimshock, ask a lot of people who have seen my late-game order. I utilize shield-wall and shield-bash to a considerable effect and it is relatively ​un-beatable.

I'm sorry, I should've put that request differently.
Give me one situation in which the Chaos player does not play like a lemon, and the Shield wall is still more effective than attacking.

Your example lacks validity in that no decent Chaos player would giant spam when they have a whole arsenal of offensive units to use. Not to mention that the giants would simply stroll past your Speartons, meaning that they'd be better off attacking the giants.

Yes, don't rage, just smile, and then glitch them.

Quote from PsychoticCheez

You've given an example and not a definition; could I have a definition?

Something that gives you a massive advantage over your opponent(s) with little effort on your part.

The Spearton's effectiveness as a defensive unit doesn't match the Juggerknight's ability as an offensive unit. The shield (push?) ability is only effective if the opponent chooses to directly engage the shield-walled Speartons. Otherwise the attack's range is too small.
Compare this to the Juggerknight's charge ability. It is guaranteed to hit an opponent in front. Oh, and you can attack whilst doing it. To utilize the shield bash you need to be not even attacking.

The effective range of the shield bash, is I believe(could be mistaken) just higher than that of the attacking range of the spearton. I believe you and I define defensive differently. I define it as, sit back and wait in a fortified position. Water against the rocks if you will. For this, the spearton not only serves this purpose, he does it painfully well.

When we also consider that a Juggerknight against a Spearton results in a win for the Juggerknight (something you've not addressed), this tips the balance is Chaos' favour even further.

As someone said, Chaos plays aggressively, order plays defensively. Chaos is to attack, while Order is to counter.

So not only will you be getting a Spearton, you'll also be researching rage, and obtaining a swordwrath?

It was an example. An Archidon could most likely kill the Juggerknight at how low the health would be after an encounter with a Spearton. The point of me saying that, is because you continue to say, the Juggerknight is massively overpowered compared to the Spearton, and yet, as I just said, 1-2(maybe 3-4) shots from an Archidon could save the Spearton, and kill the Juggerknight. Also, I don't research rage.

Whilst this Chaos player has just one Juggerknight? Again, can we please not assume the opponent has the IQ of a lemon. What is this Chaos player doing with the extra gold and extra time?

Normally, they are building up a larger army at their base, or at the middle, while also building up their economy. It's a poker thing, why show everyone your entire hand, when you can show them one card, and let them guess?

And why are we assuming that the Juggerknight will keep the swordwrath alive for the whole duration of the battle? Again, we assume our opponents are lemons.

See, now you're assuming the Order player is a lemon(why a lemon? Why not a lime or an apple?), he could easily have the Swordwrath attack once, run back, attack again, run back, or hand back for a while OR attack and when he gets too injured, retreat it?

The castle archer costs. When we consider the small income we have in the beginning, this is not a "minimal" loss to Order, and if it is, this "minimal" loss is unbalanced towards Chaos.

300 For an Castle Archer, and if the chaos player is stupid enough to let his units die, that would be 200 lost. With that being said, the effectiveness of the castle archer no matter the stage of the game, more than makes up for it.

I'm sorry, I should've put that request differently.
Give me one situation in which the Chaos player does not play like a lemon, and the Shield wall is still more effective than attacking.

I was giving an example with order vs order. Well, let's see, if you have the Speartons just a tiny bit being the wall(Yes, I said wall the first time) and the Juggerknight's charge will have no affect on the Speartons, while the Speartons are open to use shield-bash and stun them, then eat their faces(I'm a fan of zombies). WHY LEMONS AGAIN.

Your example lacks validity in that no decent Chaos player would giant spam when they have a whole arsenal of offensive units to use. Not to mention that the giants would simply stroll past your Speartons, meaning that they'd be better off attacking the giants.

Walls, They can't go past the walls. The Speartons are only meant to be there sitting back for a few moments, while the Magikill & Archidons do some damage.