lemme just.. say sometin right herez kay?
guns shouldn't be banned. even if they were, people still own guns right now, and there are way to many people that have guns right now, sooo... yeah.
like i said, they should not be banned. But, they should be harder to get.
i rest my case.

Quote from Shensurei

Camila, I don't see your point.
Guns are somewhat easy to obtain in the US, yes, but the GUN isnt doing the killing. The person is.
You would still be able to kill someone with a knife. Or a car. Or a lamp. But those things arent being discussed. Why is that?

There was more than one madman attacking schools on December 14th. One happened in China. But guns are banned in China, so he was only armed with a knife. No one died. Except maybe the attacker, I'm guessing he was summarily executed, but that's not really relevant.

And knives, cars, and lamps all have some kind of beneficial use. Guns don't. Guns only kill. Even knives aren't legal to be carried around outside (or shouldn't be in any sane society).

Quote from Scooty

There shouldn't be an outright ban on weapons, because then the only people who'll have them would be criminals.

If by "criminals" you mean gangs and so forth, members of the public shouldn't be the ones tackling them. They should be dealt with by armed police.

If by "criminals" you mean burglars then ask yourself which situation is better. a) Criminal and victim both have guns. 50/50 who's coming out alive, assuming the homeowner is as competent as the criminal and not an arthritic 75-year-old, otherwise the odds are worse. b) Only the criminal has a gun. The homeowner lets the guy take his stuff, and maybe the police get it back later but even if they don't at least he's alive. Even these scenarios assume the burglar is going to bring a gun for some reason, even though there is no conceivable motivation for him to do so.

If by "criminals" you mean murderers, most murder isn't premeditated enough for the killer to get his hands on an illegal weapon. It tends to be a spur-of-the-moment thing, done with whatever weapon is nearest. Note that in the UK less than 100 people a year are killed by guns, compared to 10,000 homicides and 20,000 suicides in the US.

Quote from Sadko

So what? you can easily steal a gun from cops while they're like watching TV, criminals are not only specialized in killing but are also good thieves.

What? How often do you see a SWAT team sat around casually and not paying attention to their weapons?

Quote from Scooty

Are you serious? A universal ban on guns won't stop criminals from acquiring them. We tried that with drugs, and look how well that worked out. The Cartel is making millions smuggling into them into the states, and I'd prefer to not add firearms as one of their sources of revenue.

Quote from Shensurei

They tried that with alcohol several years ago for similar reasons.
Guess what happened?
Crime rate went WAY up.
Still think a ban on guns is a good idea?

Again, compare US crime to UK crime. Gun bans work.

Quote from Scooty

Fucking itself in the ass is the only thing my country does nowadays. But the precautions need to meet the terms, and if you look at our past, prohibition of any kind has been a failure in every way, shape, and form.

That ban on privately owned nuclear warheads is working out pretty well for you. Just saying.

Quote from Scooty

Get your shit straight before you spring into an argument about it! The guns were his MOTHERS. She went out, obtained a license, took a test, and bought them in the most legal way possible. Gun control isn't the issue with that shooting, it's the mental state of the man who did it. Maybe she could have hid her weapons better, but even if that were a possibility, the ease with which you can "go out and buy a gun" is completely irrelevant.

This is exactly why guns need to be banned from everyone, not just restricted. If the guns are out there at all then they are an unnecessary risk.

Quote from m0ntana

lemme just.. say sometin right herez kay?
guns shouldn't be banned. even if they were, people still own guns right now, and there are way to many people that have guns right now, sooo... yeah.
like i said, they should not be banned. But, they should be harder to get.
i rest my case.

You don't get to rest your case on that. All you've done is to state your position. Case resting is reserved for when you've proven your position to be right.




Having said all that, it may be too late for America. You have too many guns and too many crazy people. Let's be honest, this whole independence thing was a bad idea from the start.

I agree with everything that Zed says. However, I have to wonder, is banning guns even practical/possible in the US now? I understand that in the forming of a hypothetical, new society there would be no guns allowed, but what about in one where guns are already so common?

Well shit.
I got confused AND argued against. I actually don't know how to respond to that massive post.

Quote from Automaton

I agree with everything that Zed says. However, I have to wonder, is banning guns even practical/possible in the US now? I understand that in the forming of a hypothetical, new society there would be no guns allowed, but what about in one where guns are already so common?

I edited my post a bit late.

Quote from Zed

Having said all that, it may be too late for America. You have too many guns and too many crazy people. Let's be honest, this whole independence thing was a bad idea from the start.

I don't know whether banning guns now would help at all. Maybe the best you could hope for would be a few years of carnage until the existing guns rusted.

Well in that case, I guess i'm heading back to Africa.
Sunshine 24/7 here I come.

Quote from Zed

Again, compare US crime to UK crime. Gun bans work.

You're mistakenly thinking that the UK and the US share the same mindset about guns. Or maybe I'm mistakenly thinking that they don't. Either way, the reason I'm arguing against an all out ban is because of the political shit-storm it'll stir up if it's ever put into action. Way too many people are way too passionate about guns to let something like that even leave the ground before they tear off it's wings and accuse us of "trying to destroy America".

Quote from Zed

That ban on privately owned nuclear warheads is working out pretty well for you. Just saying.

Yeah, come to think of it, I haven't seen any panzer tanks on the streets these days either.

Quote from Zed

This is exactly why guns need to be banned from everyone, not just restricted. If the guns are out there at all then they are an unnecessary risk.

Yeah, it's an unnecessary risk, but this brings me back to my "political shit-storm" point. This is the problem with a government "by the people, for the people". If enough people speak out against something, it's laid to rest for the sake of maintaining the peace/control.

Quote from Zed

Having said all that, it may be too late for America. You have too many guns and too many crazy people. Let's be honest, this whole independence thing was a bad idea from the start.

Amen to that.

You can never take guns away from the U.S at this point. Anyways, it doesn't matter, they are smuggled by the millions. AK-47, Uzis, and pistols are all smuggled. Even if the U.S government legally bans guns, they shall always be a citizen with one. And no, A gun doesn't even necessarily make killing easier at all.I man could kill somebody with a computer tablet or mouse. Or really, even a pencil. If you throw a pencil at someones eye fast and hard, they are dead. And besides, a gun doesn't make somebody bad, its the wielder. And in some places, like in Florida, people on farms and stuff hunt in the woods with rifles.And the kill deer and such. It wouldn't be fair to law abiding citizens to take their weaponry away, considering they paid for the gun and took the trouble of getting a permit.

And fuck it, when America's economy goes down, so does other countries by a bit too. Dammit, without the U.S, im pretty sure England would be saying, "Hail Hitler!" Considering the U.S had a massive amount of soldiers and supplied many of the British weaponry.

But we have made alot of mistakes during our live time.For example, the Cold War, every single action we took in that was an abomination.

Please... Tell me that you didn't just compare a gun wih a pencil.

Of course that having a gun it makes a LOT easier to kill a person. There will always be a citizen with a gun, but we can't say "It's too late now so why bother?". You just can't let over 300,000,000 of people (I mean by the USA), to have guns just for the sake of having one.

Quote from Rosie

Guns are extremely rare in the UK where I live.
Almost every murder I've heard of is with knives and such, pretty much never with a gun.
In fact, I've only seen about 3 throughout my life.
I'm not too sure about allowing guns here, though.

Yeah it's pretty rare in the UK. It's mostly just knives because you can by them in stores.

Quote from IceFA

You can never take guns away from the U.S at this point. Anyways, it doesn't matter, they are smuggled by the millions. AK-47, Uzis, and pistols are all smuggled. Even if the U.S government legally bans guns, they shall always be a citizen with one. And no, A gun doesn't even necessarily make killing easier at all.I man could kill somebody with a computer tablet or mouse. Or really, even a pencil. If you throw a pencil at someones eye fast and hard, they are dead. And besides, a gun doesn't make somebody bad, its the wielder. And in some places, like in Florida, people on farms and stuff hunt in the woods with rifles.And the kill deer and such. It would be fair to law abiding citizens to take their weaponry away, considering they paid for the gun and took the trouble of getting a permit.

And fuck it, when America's economy goes down, so does other countries by a bit too. Dammit, without the U.S, im pretty sure England would be saying, "Hail Hitler!" Considering the U.S had a massive amount of soldiers and supplied many of the British weaponry.

But we have made alot of mistakes during our live time.For example, the Cold War, every single action we took in that was an abomination.

The military should invest in pencils. And pencil sharpeners.

Please tell me you did not just say I compared a gun to a pencil. All I said was that you could kill with almost anything in some situations

and also, like the shooting in Connecticut, one family heard about that shooting,and ALLOWED their child to bring a gun to school to defend themselves.But what, if the freedom of having a gun is taken away-they will just be ridden with bullets. So they are many sides to the argument. After all, not all countries situations are the same. To tell you the truth, If I knew that shooting was going to happen and I was one of those kids,
I would have brought a gun to school-like a magnum. So I could defend myself. Im sure nobody would be like, "Oh, well, he wont shoot me, Im a child and he might not see me."

Quote from IceFA

Please tell me you did not just say I compared a gun to a pencil. All I said was that you could kill with almost anything in some situations

and also, like the shooting in Connecticut, one family heard about that shooting,and ALLOWED their child to bring a gun to school to defend themselves.But what, if the freedom of having a gun is taken away-they will just be ridden with bullets. So they are many sides to the argument. After all, not all countries situations are the same. To tell you the truth, If I knew that shooting was going to happen and I was one of those kids,
I would have brought a gun to school-like a magnum. So I could defend myself. Im sure nobody would be like, "Oh, well, he wont shoot me, Im a child and he might not see me."

As Zed said, you can't go on a killing spree with just a knife, much less with a pencil. You'll get your ass handed to to in no time. You think those kids who were murdered would know how to fire a gun in the right direction? Seriously?

Quote from IceFA

Please tell me you did not just say I compared a gun to a pencil. All I said was that you could kill with almost anything in some situations

"a gun doesn't even necessarily make killing easier at all." This suggests to me that you think killing someone with a gun is just as hard as killing someone with an everyday house hold object. Or it is just as easy to kill someone with a household object as it is with a gun. Why don't you first explain why a gun doesn't necessarily make killing easier compared to the alternative options of killing? Guns are designed to kill, if they weren't good at doing that, what is the purpose of producing them and having them as a form of self defense?

You then continue to mention computer tablet, mouse and pencil and how it can be used to kill people. (And really oversimplifying the killing process) It seems like you are trying to suggest that these ordinary everyday objects can be used as weapons. Just like a gun. By neglecting to mention how difficult it would be to actually kill a person with a keyboard, it leaves me with an impression that you are trying to say that these objects can be just as effective in the killing process. And hence you are making a comparison.

Now you say "you could kill with almost anything in some situations". Okay. But how does this link with the topic of discussion? In order for what you have argued to have some sort of relevance to the debate, you must have made some sort of comparison with guns. Otherwise, you would be just making an insignificant claim.

Don't blame others for accusing you of making a comparison.

By the way the guy who went on a killing spree managed to kill 20 people. If that doesn't illustrate how easy it is to kill with a gun, I don't know what examples you would accept. Try doing that with a keyboard, mouse or pencil.

Quote from IceFA

I would have brought a gun to school-like a magnum. So I could defend myself. Im sure nobody would be like, "Oh, well, he wont shoot me, Im a child and he might not see me."

Didn't you just say that "a gun doesn't even necessarily make killing easier at all." And seriously, who would let kids carry firearms in school?

Let me just say this: a gun ban in the US would never, ever work out. There would be way too many people protesting "hurr durr Amendments blah blah taking our rights, Obama was a Communist this whole time, 'MURICA"
The public as a whole would be against a gun ban just because it goes against a rule our forefathers came up with many years ago. But I don't think that the people who wrote the Amendments were keeping in mind that guns would become more and more deadly, lethal, and efficient.

Oh, and the idea that our violent media fuels the urges of killers? No. Just no. That's just some bullshit that the media has come up with to have a juicier story than their competitors. They'll somehow find a connection between the rates of shootings and GTA sales.

Sorry if any of these points have already been made. I just wanted to get my thoughts out there.