Hmmm as I said they can just send ghosts (you say theydie quickly, but they should be able to hit at least 1 time against wall? So enough hits would break wall :) btw if the opponent had 8 giants and a magikills instead, can the magikills use spells past walls (I never use magikills lol)?

Hm I just started playing with magikills and all I know is that they can hit albowtrosses. :P I would /imagine/ that they can strike past walls, but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

By the way, you could always claim the tower and spawn giants, then start attacking with heavy defense units (giants and speartons, i think that's it), before they can mass 9 giants.

Hmm. Maybe. Whenever a giant masser has his first giant out, I'm screwed, although usually by that time I have a small army and a giant under construction, somewhen my giant's done I'm ok :)

MASS merics :D maybe that'll solve the problem (i doubt it, but hey, noone has tried it, so you never know :))

Its pointless in that there are no decisions to be made. There is no strategical and tactical impact the upgrades have.

The giants are admittedly overpowered, I think. It is too much firepower and meat shield too quickly. They seem a tad too population efficient as well

Quote from uberman

On that point, income for economic advantage, do you pick up passive income, and if so do you do it after getting the miners in place or before? Its less return than a miner, but gives gold and mana, and doesn't take up 2 population slots.



wow, thats enlightening. Hence your huge army against my paltry offering the other day (I was on chaoticevil, my chaos acct).
So its almost as important to make them Garrison as it is to actually kill any miners - obviously both being the ideal.



Good point. Build a securing force first - towerspawn is wasted resources if you don't keep hold of the tower :) and that's in his advantage, seriously so.



Right.

Did you see my thread about crawlers? in test play I found that 30 buffed (pack mentality and predator instinct) crawlers killed 3 giants easily, and 12 killed one giant, with 6 crawlers dead. That was without any micro.
Could this be the chaos equivalent to the swordwrath hard counter to giants? With its weakness to castle archers and AOE's too?
I just cant help but think there must be a flaw in the plan of spamming crawlers to take out giants....
link http://forums.stickpage.com/showthread.php?48346-Question-about-crawlers-raised-by-test-playing

I'd appreciate your comments.

Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 crawlers to kill 1 giant means 12 population to defeat 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.

RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

Quote from MiamiBigAL

Unfortunately I think crawlers may be less of a counter than swordwraths. With micro, possibly more so but I can't say at the moment since I've never experimented with them.

The problem with crawlers is that they take up 1 population just like a swordwrath does. 12 giants to kill 1 giant means 12 population to 7 population. The benefit of swordwraths is that 7 swordwraths (even without rage) can kill 1 giant. So for equal population, swordwraths come out on top (making them a counter in a swordwrath vs giant situation). However, I am thinking 7 crawlers will probably get annihilated by 1 giant. The advantage of the crawlers is that if you have good micromanagement, you can retreat the hurt crawlers and get them back into battle again 20-30 seconds later or so (and you don't need the population a meric uses for the healing). In that respect, with top micro the crawlers are potentially much more powerful, but again I have not tested.

However, in a realistic situation, you may have other units to deal with. Combinations using magikills, archers, fliers, etc, render crawlers much weaker. Likewise, deads, marrowkai and wingadons will also weaken the swordwrath potential as effective giant counters.

In my opinion, I would personally make it 3 hits to kill a crawler (instead of 2). This will increase crawler giant-survivability by 50%. I would probably also increase swordwrath giant-survivability to 4 hits to death (33% increase? I'm assuming it is currently 3 giant hits to kill a sword but I can't remember). This may mean it would take something like 5 swordwraths (un-microed) to kill a giant and 8 crawlers (un-microed) to kill a giant.

RE: Magikill

I would only use magikills as a counter to a swordwrath//archer army. It is too easy to dodge electric wall for it to be useful against order giants. Against chaos, magikills are worthless because they get killed by marrowkai/medusa too easily.

bolded part. Dont you mean 12 crawlers not 12 giants? :)

It used to be bugged, and would have the merics actually costing 5 population instead of 3. It's been fixed.

300 mana is sooo easy to get early game, dude. 750 mana seems balanced enough, because 300 mana? Seriously? You could get that within the first three minutes of the game. Giants should not be early game units, and you should not be able to have more than two.

ok cool

Personally, I don't think giants should cost mana and I think their pricing and power is perfect.

Any skilled player would rush early and damage the enemy economy, so if you happen to meet up with a giant masser, do just that. Attacking early is also a way to kill a giant masser. Build a large spearton army and rush at his statue before he gets too many giants.

PLEASE DON'T CHANGE THE GIANT'S STATS!!!

-besides... meeting up with a problem is to find a way to overcome it-

I usually rush to see what they're doing and find a solution to solve.( Just defeated a Spearton masser.)

Spearton massers suck... Because they are hard countered against albows with blazing bolts, plus resilence, plus 3 castle archers, plus 2 walls

It takes alot more than two walls to counter spearton rushers. Sometimes I need about 3-4 walls before my archers kill them.