Ele does NOT need more nerfs. You just need to turtle right. Wall + CA + magikill with spears on shield wall mode will stop any scorpions, poison will eliminate any units except charrogs. It takes a lot of micro to force the opponent to the statue as well. EvC is a different story.

Quote from nutsophast

Ele does NOT need more nerfs. You just need to turtle right. Wall + CA + magikill with spears on shield wall mode will stop any scorpions, poison will eliminate any units except charrogs. It takes a lot of micro to force the opponent to the statue as well. EvC is a different story.

I don't want it nerfed overall.

I want it capable of fighting ranged fights and not getting insta win when it manages to fight melee.

I get your point. I would say not ranged units in general, but more wings. Any ground ranged unit, infernos takes care of that. Albows, cycloid + fire/air since albows are slow. Wings are the only thing that are hard to counter. I'm currently still testing my starts and strats so maybe it'll turn out differently once I'm done with tests.

As for ele melee, charrogs don't do a lot of damage, earths aren't exactly a combat unit, and scorpions have low health. An order turtle consisting of spears, merics, and magikill will stop any incoming melee.

Quote from nutsophast

I get your point. I would say not ranged units in general, but more wings. Any ground ranged unit, infernos takes care of that. Albows, cycloid + fire/air since albows are slow. Wings are the only thing that are hard to counter. I'm currently still testing my starts and strats so maybe it'll turn out differently once I'm done with tests.

As for ele melee, charrogs don't do a lot of damage, earths aren't exactly a combat unit, and scorpions have low health. An order turtle consisting of spears, merics, and magikill will stop any incoming melee.

I'm aware Infernoes can handle Archers, but only via the spells - archers aren't going to get hit a little, they'll get wiped out or not hit at all. It's this sort of gameplay I don't like. Ele needs so much gold and then can just ignore how ever many archers you have or however many albows and wipe them all out in one go. It's binary counters and ignores gold on both players once you get to the utility.

Charrogs can tank for quite a while, so I don't think they have any problems, I'd like to see upgrades for Fires and Airs to make them more capable mid and late game and nerfs to Infernoes because that strength simply won't be needed or neccessary once ele can handle themselves at range without spell casters.

Quote from nutsophast

Ele does NOT need more nerfs. You just need to turtle right. Wall + CA + magikill with spears on shield wall mode will stop any scorpions, poison will eliminate any units except charrogs. It takes a lot of micro to force the opponent to the statue as well. EvC is a different story.

Ele surely needs nerf .

I am interested to see how you can bring out CA and magkill under crazy early pressure from elemental.

I was the player who got to top 10 first with elemental, and I had experience of more than 500 matches with elemental. I won 99% of the time in EvO and got to 2500 easily.
But in contrast, being an order player , I found it extremely difficult to counter elemental in short map.
I am pretty sure it is almost impossible for order player to beat elemental in short maps like castle or halloween , unless the elemental player is a noob and sucks.

Earth mass and fire mass in short map rekt almost every order player. Especially earth mass rush, CA cannot kill one single earth, resulting in a waste of 300 gold for order players, while elemental players can retreat all earths and have double economy.
Spears just get killed by a few fires within seconds. And magkill extremely high cost is impossible for it to work in the early game.

And ONE more important thing is how elemental has advantage in lag. Two fire hit can almost kill one archer, with a double amount of health. In lag games, it is easily for order players to suffer from burn damage , or even die at once due to one single delay in facing inferno.

For EvC, it is a different story . Elemental is underpowered facing chaos. The reason is cycloid is just not cost-efficient compared with eclipsors, and bombers from chaos can rekt elemental in early game.

Quote from mysterybat

For EvC, it is a different story . Elemental is underpowered facing chaos. The reason is cycloid is just cost-efficient compared with eclipsors, and bombers from chaos can rekt elemental in early game.

You mean cycloid isn't cost efficient, right?

Quote from Skeletonxf

You mean cycloid isn't cost efficient, right?

type mistake LOL
you should understand it :P

anyway, ele is actually sure-win against order if the ele player is smart enough to exploit the early game advantage.
Undeniably, ele is very bad in late game. But most likely ele always win in early game, which makes late game impossible.

If the ele player allows the order player to get out late game units like magkills, ninjas or even giants. Then that means ele player sucks and mess up.

Exactly, ele is basically binary - which is odd for the most varied empire.

It needs buffs to things it can't do and nerfs to the few things it does too well - that right now make gameplay very unhealthy.

One big complaint I have is with the infernos. Their use seems to be for zoning, and yet, they are not used for that purpose. When you get an infernos, you rush their archers or their gold line or whatever and you meteor. Not only does ele not lose anything by doing this, it forces order back. If they don't go back instantly the meteor's burn will one-step-kill archers and swords, which are the best thing to do against ele for the early and mid game. It's completely centralized the midgame around it in OvE and I feel it needs a serious nerf.

Quote from IHATETHISNAME

One big complaint I have is with the infernos. Their use seems to be for zoning, and yet, they are not used for that purpose. When you get an infernos, you rush their archers or their gold line or whatever and you meteor. Not only does ele lose nothing by doing this, it forces order back. If they don't go back instantly the meteor's burn will one-step-kill archers and swords, which are the best thing to do against ele for the early and mid game. It's completely centralized the midgame around it in OvE and I feel it needs a serious nerf.

This ^^

Not only is it stupid, it's totally map dependent and luck to what map you get makes for very bad competitive play.

Quote from mysterybat

Ele surely needs nerf .

I am interested to see how you can bring out CA and magkill under crazy early pressure from elemental.

I was the player who got to top 10 first with elemental, and I had experience of more than 500 matches with elemental. I won 99% of the time in EvO and got to 2500 easily.
But in contrast, being an order player , I found it extremely difficult to counter elemental in short map.
I am pretty sure it is almost impossible for order player to beat elemental in short maps like castle or halloween , unless the elemental player is a noob and sucks.

Earth mass and fire mass in short map rekt almost every order player. Especially earth mass rush, CA cannot kill one single earth, resulting in a waste of 300 gold for order players, while elemental players can retreat all earths and have double economy.
Spears just get killed by a few fires within seconds. And magkill extremely high cost is impossible for it to work in the early game.

And ONE more important thing is how elemental has advantage in lag. Two fire hit can almost kill one archer, with a double amount of health. In lag games, it is easily for order players to suffer from burn damage , or even die at once due to one single delay in facing inferno.

For EvC, it is a different story . Elemental is underpowered facing chaos. The reason is cycloid is just not cost-efficient compared with eclipsors, and bombers from chaos can rekt elemental in early game.

Yes you are top ten, and you have experience with 500 games.

Early game I find fire start unreliable because of range disadvantages. If the fire start is somehow viable EvO, can someone tell me because I don't know how it's viable. For air start, getting a CA just shuts them down, CA = 300 gold, Air = 400 gold. The only good thing is three earth start, which isn't even an aggresive start. I'm ranked fairly high and I've lost to people just getting lots of swords and rushing my miners, because with a large number of swords, your castle air won't do anything.

When I say turtling I mean it mid-game. Elementals do have lag, but that doesn't give them an advantage xD. Lag just makes it hard for both players.

Now for infernos, I wouldn't say that it's over-centralizing the media. Elementals aren't used that much anyway. But you guys are correct. Cast meteors and archers are either dead or gone. But without it, archers are free to just run around and rip your whole army to shreads. I wouldn't nerf the spell's stats, maybe increase meteor cost? Because this is the only thing that elementals have to counter archers.

Without meteors I don't know any other method to counter archers, maybe I'm just stupid. You mind telling me any other way to counter? I've tested many things and I found meteors to be the best.

Quote from nutsophast

Now for infernos, I wouldn't say that it's over-centralizing the media.

Quote from nutsophast

Without meteors I don't know any other method to counter archers

*not over centralizing the matchup*
*only way to counter*

Quote from nutsophast

I wouldn't nerf the spell's stats, maybe increase meteor cost? Because this is the only thing that elementals have to counter archers.

Elementals in general are poorly balanced. Yes, it's the only thing they can do, but they do it EXTREMELY well against order. I say we should buff them in other places and nerf them in this way. The burn is ridiculous. Increasing cost doesn't change the fact that it's too strong.

Not to mention, they really have no way to stop bomber/wing from chaos. If they want cycloids to be a "big part of the game" they should make them usable.

Cycloids are way too freakin cheesey. That much health and a short ability to be invulnerable? Just more reasons why albowtross and eclipsors are never used.

I actually have started to use cycloids more just to counter archer mass due to the fact infernoes are vulnerable to shinobi where as cycloids can't even be touched.
Not to mention that if there ever is a tech into allows ill already have a force for it

In response to reducing meteors.
My opinion is a fuck no.
Scorch isn't always reliable. If u don't have a fore to handle the impending inferno u deserve to lose.

Myself and Mysterybat have no probs dealing with inferns.

I've actually been able to deal with chaos in any map size whilst ignoring bombs most of te game with fires.

In my evo games I know exactly what to do vs earth rush. I seem to have no difficulty taking out the earths as they attempt to flee. The problem with an early ca is that I usually look at where the ca is targeting running the targeted earth to garrison and finishing off whatever unit I'm attacking.

450>300