Quote from Cryos

I know this was taken out of context, but here's a really cool analogy of SSBM explaining how Pivot can somehow be better than Flash because I just spent all day thinking about it and well, I don't want it to goto waste.

Prologue: You already knew to take it out of context, and you're still arguing? Let's pretend you didn't and say you did.

Quote from Cryos

I know you didn't say Flash was superior to Pivot (Though it was implied.)

First off. I never believed SSB (even Melee) had tiers. Tiers are an illusion to every Scrub, SeriousGamer, and SHFG in what is practically a MASCOT fighter (don't argue with me that Melee is a legit fighter, that's an entirely different can of worms). But you people seem to respect tiers so much, it becomes legendary when an underdog tier beats a superior one. Tiers don't mean absolute strength. They're a result of statistics. Someone in the 99% muses that Fox is awesome, there is always and will always be the 1% who gets a clean win in. So don't bring up SSBM to me expecting me to take it seriously in that context. Unless it is Sm4sh (which I have yet to play and therefore cannot ascertain if every character is truly balanced), I just cannot take your analogy seriously.

Secondly, your analogy sucks. SSBM is not comparable to Pivot/Flash/Everything else. You're attempting to fit delusions of an underdog pulling a David vs Goliath moment on the vastly superior pick/skill/whatever to forward your point that you guys can actually be pretty good. Well, STOP IT. I'm not gonna go there. I've never gone there, and I never will. And you cannot push me into it: I never said Pivot sucks over Flash. I don't even want to argue how your analogy makes no sense. I don't care what you say Pivot (and other miscellaneous software) can or cannot do and what their limits are. That's not the point and as you say you already know you took it out of context!

I respect good pivoters who practice over at DD and show some epic stuff that amaze even the staunchiest of Flash Supporters. But what I'm saying is I don't get the appeal of Pivot Clans who take in Flash users and expect to be able to help them. Much less act as their leader. I'm not saying they shouldn't be becaue Flash is better. I'm saying that Flash is different. I'll give you an even better analogy:

Flash is SSBM. Pivot is SSB. You cannot use SSB Link and expect to be able to wavedash like SSBM Link because he just can't. And to make a clan of SSB and SSBM characters together is bullshit because they can never fit in. Much less, making an SSB Clan to fit the standards of the SSBM culture. You will always miss out on potential rewards. Whatever happened to just practicing SSB alone in the Pivot section. Is that not a viable tactic anymore? SSB Clans are bullshit because they think they can reach the same standards as SSBM, NOT because they think they are better than them. You can make Pivot Clans go ahead. But don't expect people to think it can hold to the requirements and standards of what RHG is really for: Flash Users.

Quote from Cryos

All this RHG stuff I was so interested in just an hour ago has turned so...materialistic and pointless. I didn't even KNOW clans were supposed to be a way of mentoring and just thought they were a kind of hang outs \and coordinated animator collaboration zone and I was okay with that. And I'm not okay with that.

I'm not saying that Clans HAVE to be mentoring spots, just that they no longer exist. They used to be abundant, and were in fact more dominant over the "bro-hangout" clans in the past. To say that every clan these days just hangout and never mentor is an insult to what RHG used to represent: a way to bond and improve in ways that kids can easily get into. But wallowing in your own self-righteousness while waiting for the Xth member to come so you can do nothing in the end is just even more pointless now.

Quote from Hewitt

First off. I never believed SSB (even Melee) had tiers. Tiers are an illusion to every Scrub, SeriousGamer, and SHFG in what is practically a MASCOT fighter (don't argue with me that Melee is a legit fighter, that's an entirely different can of worms). But you people seem to respect tiers so much, it becomes legendary when an underdog tier beats a superior one. Tiers don't mean absolute strength. They're a result of statistics. Someone in the 99% muses that Fox is awesome, there is always and will always be the 1% who gets a clean win in. So don't bring up SSBM to me expecting me to take it seriously in that context. Unless it is Sm4sh (which I have yet to play and therefore cannot ascertain if every character is truly balanced), I just cannot take your analogy seriously.

This is probably out of context of the thread, but as a competitive smash player I disagree with quite a few things here.

Feel free to talk shop with me Raptor. In the Smash Thread or in the PMs. But my basic point is that Cryos cannot use an SSBM pichu vs Fox analogy to defend how pivot can beat flash someday. Because:

a) I never said Flash was better. Just that they're different.
b) Pivot and Flash are not even in the same 'verse, so pichu vs Fox is not the same thing.
c) It's much better to say that Pivot and Flash are SSB and SSBM respectively.

Oh I know you're point, I'm just saying I disagree with your view on tiers (to an extent) and your implied disagreement of Smash's validity as a fighting game.

And like I said, I know that you know that I know that I hate tiers and unserious fighting games. Yes, thanks for confirming.

You can say you're

*puts on shades*

CONFIRMED FOR SMASH


YEAAAAAAA~

Okay, that post was a little needlessly aggressive but alrighty. Lets dissect, not in any particular order.

"I'll give you an even better analogy:...proceeds to give better analogy."

Huh, alrighty, yeah that works. You one upped me. Except, well. You make it sound as if Pivot and Flash are worlds apart. As if knowledge from one won't transfer to another. As if a noob in Flash has nothing to learn from a pro in Pivot. As if a Pivot leader can't do anything for their Flash members, which simply, well. Isn't true. And I think we both know that, maybe you just worded it wrong I don't know but that's how it came across. If we're sticking to the Smash analogy (which I feel has fallen on deaf ears at this point.) I'd say Flash is Melee and Pivot is Project M. Assuming, that when you say SSB you mean Brawl.

And you know what, I'm really starting to agree with you, you make good points and the fact that I misinterpreted your first post into thinking it was the embodied little tumor of Stickpage that thought Pivot was vastly inferior but now that you have enlightened me I do realize I was sadly mistak--

"But don't expect people to think it can hold to the requirements and standards of what RHG is really for: Flash Users."
"SSB Clans are bullshit because they think they can reach the same standards as SSBM"


Hey, if I read those quotes regularly I'd almost thing you were insinuating Pivot was downgrade but aye, context right? "NOT because they think they are better than them." Those 2 statements and this one don't really match up. Mind clarifying? Look. I'm not trying to say "Pivoters" are some kind of victimized minority on this forum, but from all this hubbub lets talk about the quote that sparked it all. IN CONTEXT.

"I don't understand people who ever thought that Pivot ever had a chance to co-exist in a Flash-dominant setting."

I mean, why not? Why shouldn't animators who use pivot utilize the RHG system, no Pivot and Flash clans are not similar and yes, they never will be. But I mean, they're not polar opposites! They're not so different that "Pivot clans can't expect the amount of respect from similar RHG clans(Which have flash animators I presume.)" I mean, for aesthetics and menu's and pictures and the like yes, I couldn't even conceive how someone could make that in Pivot. So guess what? You make them in flash! And that's okay.

"Whatever happened to just practicing in the Pivot section alone."

...

You can't be serious, right? So people who use pivot type soft ware and Easytoon have to stay in their respective corners of a room, while Flash was supposed to be the entire house? I'm honestly glad that's not the case but to think that you think it should be the way things work around here, is a little unsettling.

Who knows, once I get good I'll create a clan to teach "Pivoters" new things 1:1. But for now, I'd like to be a part of the SPF without this kind of mindset floating around.

---

[/HR]

Too keep this thread on track, I HONESTLY don't get the appeal of dubstep. It's just, I don't know. Just don't get it, but hey. Opinions and preferences all that jazz.

Flash is a better more flexible and more comprehensive animation software than pivot could ever hope to be
they are worlds apart

I do think pivot has the potential to catch up to flash though, Peter really does listen to the community and I think with in time Pivot could really be a decent animation software. Pivot's thing for the longest time was simplicity so I don't even know why the 2 are being compared, since the 2 have always been made and directed to 2 different audiences. Of course they would be worlds apart.


Thank god someone else believes that Tiers are shit, I never believed Tiers were legit, but Smash is a legit fighting game/arena game, especially competitive.

Quote from Cryos

Okay, that post was a little needlessly aggressive but alrighty.

And taking my original post "out of context" and arguing for a point I never made, isn't? I'm merely responding in the same mentality as you---treating my words as if there's some kind of double meaning to be discerned that rubs you the wrong way.

Quote from Cryos

You make it sound as if Pivot and Flash are worlds apart. As if knowledge from one won't transfer to another. As if a noob in Flash has nothing to learn from a pro in Pivot. As if a Pivot leader can't do anything for their Flash members, which simply, well. Isn't true. And I think we both know that, maybe you just worded it wrong I don't know but that's how it came across. If we're sticking to the Smash analogy (which I feel has fallen on deaf ears at this point.) I'd say Flash is Melee and Pivot is Project M. Assuming, that when you say SSB you mean Brawl.

SSB is Super Smash Bros (N64). SSBB is super smash bros brawl. >_> Why would I ever equate Pivot to something that is newer than Flash?

And there you go again, taking words out of my mouth. I NEVER said Pivot users and Flash users cannot learn from each other. I never said Pivot can't do anything for Flash. I only said that in a setting where Flash works preferably well, a Pivot culture cannot shoehorn itself into it. Perhaps a purely Pivot RHG Culture can exist, but not to mingle with Flash. But but if we're talking about your point then yes I do agree with Drone...both programs are worlds apart and the only knowledge that you can pass on would be animation theory that's independent of the program you use. But using both programs as a means to teach each other things is impossible because of how things operate.

We can sit here all day arguing back and forth or you can actually defend your point by provide examples. We have what, 20 clans right now? Go ahead and search for an instance where a Pivoter is teaching a Flash-user using the pivot-specific knowledge that he has. And vice-versa. We'll wait.

Quote from Cryos

Hey, if I read those quotes regularly I'd almost think (sic) you were insinuating Pivot was downgrade but aye, context right?

Are you sure you're not really second-guessing me on purpose? Cos it's starting to show all you wanna do right now is paint me the wrong way. How many times do I have to tell you "That's not what I mean. You're paranoid."

Quote from Cryos

"I don't understand people who ever thought that Pivot ever had a chance to co-exist in a Flash-dominant setting."

I mean, why not?

Alright. You want to know the main point of this argument? You want to know why I didn't specifically say "I don't see the appeal in Pivot groups having RHG Clans" instead. I thought it was really obvious but apparently you just can't see it...

Stickpage makes money from its portal, which needs animations of Flash's quality.

^That's it. That's really it. You can argue all day about "respect" and "skill" and "learning from each other". But at the end of the day, it's all about the money. Sponsorships. The entire onus of having RHGs is to be able to shape users into making stellar animations through bonding and mentorship, so that one day they might be able to actually be Pros and get their own anim (not necessarily an RHG anim) sponsored for CJ to create a profit for the site. Go ahead and reply to this paragraph by quoting it, and once again take it out of context that I mean to imply that Stickpage is a heartless corporation who has no room for Pivoteers. GO AHEAD. BUT THAT WONT BE THE POINT ONCE AGAIN.

Quote from Cryos

Why shouldn't animators who use pivot utilize the RHG system, no Pivot and Flash clans are not similar and yes, they never will be. But I mean, they're not polar opposites!

OMG I NEVER SAID THEY WERE POLAR OPPOSITES. I never said Pivots can get no respect. I never said Pivots can't be respected as well as Flash Clans. Please listen closely before you reply with assumptions: What I'm saying is. In a setting. Where Flash. Is treated seriously. Pivot. Cannot be expected. To be respected. In the similar or equal manner. Why don't I just erase your SSB analogy completely and put it in a way even a preschooler can understand:

A rectangular block cannot fit into a circular hole.

That DOES NOT mean that the rectangular block is SHIT. That just means, the block can only be used for building blocks of a similar type. A type that is different from its rolypoly cousins.

Quote from Cryos

You can't be serious, right? So people who use pivot type soft ware and Easytoon have to stay in their respective corners of a room, while Flash was supposed to be the entire house? I'm honestly glad that's not the case but to think that you think it should be the way things work around here, is a little unsettling.

Who knows, once I get good I'll create a clan to teach "Pivoters" new things 1:1. But for now, I'd like to be a part of the SPF without this kind of mindset floating around.

FYI, 8 years ago, when this site was super active, the Pivot section was one of the most active places to be. And it didn't need an RHG System to create and foster Pivot Pros and Intermediates. I cannot vouch for it personally, but a ton of the SP Oldbies can tell you this themselves. It had a alot of awesome pivot animators who grew to know animation theory a whole lot better than most of the Flash users today. So by that statement, I was merely saying that if it has worked all this time, why bother having a Pivot RHG Clan? What is the point of training in pivot in an environment that is acceptable to Flash? What merits can pivoteers manage to create by having to do anything with Flash. It's completely different and shouldn't mingle to begin with unless you're an inter in animation theory.

I remember the days of Jon and OmegaBert.

I don't get why friends fight over useless and trivial shit that could be solved with a simple ''you have your opinion, and I'll respect it because we're friends''

Quote from Miracle

I don't get why friends fight over useless and trivial shit that could be solved with a simple ''you have your opinion, and I'll respect it because we're friends''

If you feel like your point is worth arguing, ypu should argue it. Debating amongst friends happens all the time, I wouldn't exactly call it fighting either because at the end of it all, someone either wins or you both decide that there's no point arguing anymore and move on
If a little back and forth over a small issue is enough to start a legit "fight" and breed animosity between two friends, then the two of them probably have no business being friends

I don't really understand the concept of hating on things. Like, not just dislike, I mean hating on things.

Like, as a graphic designer it is part of my job to despise Comic Sans with every fiber of my being, but making a website about how bad it is to rally for it's ban seems a bit harsh.

Also, the Nickelback hate. To my knowledge they aren't sacrificing babies to the devil.

Quote from Cryos

Alright? Now that that trivial and irrelevant mess is out of the way which I'm kinda upset I had to bring up in the first place. No, I did not know that the goal was to get to Portal and make revenue. But now I do, and god dammit I respect the hell out of that. But what's wrong with coexisting? It's Stickpage. You didn't say Pivot was shit, and I don't think you did. I just don't understand why YOU don't understand the people who thought Pivot and Flash could coexist.

I don't think Pivot and Flash shouldn't coexist. I just think they can't coexist in RHG. Because when kids from the outside look at Stickpage (to generate revenue), they expect animations to be awesomely Flash. That's basically the connection between the portal and clans; my reason for why Pivot can't be in the RHG. The only reason why there are Pivot clans and RHGs in the first place is because Pivot is free and more accessible.

I'm so exasperated by this statement I keep repeating. Pivot Clans are okay. That's why I shifted my initial statement from "I dont get the appeal of Pivot Clans." to "I don't get the appeal of Pivot trying to shoehorn itself into Flash-focused cultures." I'm just a little miffed that you decided to be 'insulted' by something I never even meant to imply.

Look. Actual Pivot Clans actually exist. But you don't see a single Flash user trying to get into the action of that place, do you? Easily because only Pivot users can really mentor Pivot users and the same goes for Flash.

What I'm basically saying is "Pivot, get your own damn RHG."