Originally wanted somewhere to complain, but I don't like making useless threads. So I'm making this thread to talk about why DM is unbalanced to a lot of people and how it could be improved.


One issue I have with DM is tower spawn. In classic it's really not too much of a big deal, but when it comes to OvC, or OvE on DM, order really doesn't have a much of a chance. Chaos players and especially ele players can grab tower from the start and order can't stop them without taking so much risk. This forces Order to play defensively while chaos and ele can ride ghost spawn throughout the whole game. It takes around 20 secs (my guess, not sure if exact) for players to throw pressure on, and later, get a whooping giant which makes it hard for order to comeback. My question here is, should tower spawn level 2 take longer, the same way it takes longer for it to finish upgrading? I don't know how long it takes for tower to spawn, but if feels they're close if not same in time. Does it make more sense to have at the very least, tower spawn II to take longer? I would think it would. Perhaps an additional 20 secs?

Then my other big issue is of course is Castle, the map we all know and love. Is it okay for castle to still be a part of DM ranked? Given what I just said in above paragraph, Order REALLY doesn't have any chance. Can we at least have this map removed from at least DM? Hell, OvO, EvC, whatever matchup it is, nobody is enjoying it.


Just some thoughts from me. Tell me yours and add whatever else you feel on DM balancing.

What I'd like to see is some in game changes to how DM plays out.

> Halved unit and research time.
> Some stat rearranges on the starting gold + mana due to ele's strength off it and holding Chaos back a little more on starts

I say the first one cause it's DEATH MATCH, after the first min there's nothing to distinguish it from the normal late game of classic except eco being a little different. Halving unit research time should help out order most, given order has the longest queues, and should make it more possible to get out an army when you need it. - I find DM has so much emphasis on aggression that you simply lose to a stronger army and cannot recover thanks to the fact it takes to long to get your units out.

Second one because the mana is in excess for ele and gives it way too much starting match strength by 8 miner complering @ start and also because clipping the mana start will hold Chaos back a little bit from dominating starts.

DM is only fun when you play as Ele or order on short maps (mage rush XD)

I'd like to see some more fun things with it you know cause DEATHmatch should be fun. and deadly

As a DM Order player who...basically hasn't touched it in ages, I found 2.1k DM as Order is basically the highest you can get, any further is a stretch.

I don't like to make changes to stats specifically for one mode, for one matchup, or whatever. I find it's annoying for player intuition and makes it harder to jump between the two modes.

I would SERIOUSLY suggest a change to Shinobi upgrades.

Shinobi I and Shinobi II both take 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds. Why? Because I feel like the timer is a bit long-winded in classic, when let's face it, Shinobi II is the only usable thing, Shinobi I doesn't have the same impact. It allows shadowrath to be a bit more viable and be faster to setup.

In Deathmatch, Order has traditionally had problems because Chaos has instant killing potential and Elementals can swarm. Order's "instant kill" shadowrath takes 60 seconds to upgrade, which by then the opponent is at your base and already pressuring hard. An earlier shadow can give Order a faster ability to shinobi.

So you optimise with 40 second shinobi, and with shinobi's 30 second cooldown, 1:10 is your next hit. If you were playing without this change, 1:00 would be your first shinobi. That extra shinobi nets out a bit more damage that could give Order a stronger chance and initiative in DM.

Then again, I don't main DM, so someone might make a better suggestion. But as it is, I believe shadow could stand a research nerf.

I think tower spawn should be weaker than the normal unit.

It's going to help with DM, but it's going to mess up classic games.

Then maybe the devs can adjust tower spawn only for DM?

Like I said earlier, I think adjusting it for one mode messes up with intuition. Just give Order a faster startup via shinobi change.

I've brought up how stone should be replaced with venom flux, making poison the starting resource with purchase of a medusa, and stone the 200g resource needed to loud in the castle. Would even the kill power in DM and give better use to marrowkai being more cost effective up front in classic.

As far as elementals go, they need a complete rework. I've talked about that enough already, there's no need to beat it into the ground again.

Actually I think WyzDM's idea is a good one that has some value. I still believe that shinobi research time could be nerfed though. Maybe 25?

I disagree with shinobi needing a buff (or did you say nerf?). Shinobi is the only thing that can deal with infernos which are essential to ele breaking Order walls and/or turtles starting mid-game. Right now they one-hit infernos with shinobi II so they don't need a buff if anything, they should get nerfed to have to give infernos a regular hit on top so water can freeze and make it fair, shinobis won't be invincible like they are now.

Birdman and I have DM history and I can't help but feel part of this thread has to do with our previous match(es). I beat him VERY soundly because he totally failed to properly defend as O vs E and there have been others ON CASTLE who defended vs. me successfully it's just about doing it right and he doesn't know how.

Granted, I'm not the best DM player either (2050 rating) so a higher tier might have different things to say but at our level (Birdman and I), Order CERTAINLY can defend against ele.

One more point: Something Order players tend not to realize is that a lot of ele pressure is "fake" and/or a facade, however you want to describe it. It LOOKS like a charrog is this massive, unbeatable force when 2 are rushing at you + more units 30 seconds into the game but the reality is that properly defended they can be rendered essentially useless, it's just that most players don't know how to defend it properly.

Uh...did you read what I described? Shinobi research time can be nerfed to give it better preparation vs Chaos and vs Classic as well, because right now it takes sometime to setup shadows.

And no, I doubt it MRS. DM isn't a competitive matchup because everyone knows the balance is shit.

You are saying reduce the time to research shinobi? That would be a buff, not a nerf. It is probably good how it is imo but I don't have much exp with shadows, they just piss me off a lot already.

I don't know what you were responding to with the second point but I guarantee at 2000-2100 Order can defend vs. ele very easily (even on castle) it's just a matter of doing it properly which most don't.

Oh sorry, I keep saying nerf instead of buff. Dafuq am I doing.

Uh MRS, Order struggles in DM so hard it's not even funny.

EDIT: Also if you're 2050 and a 2100 is holding you...isn't that kind of, you know the point? Because they're a better player, so they hold you?