Quote from Externus

By the very definition of a sport, the ones given by Merriam-Webster, Dictionary.com, AND Oxford , E-Sports are not sports, and they never really will be.

They do not say that. They might define sports in a way that doesn't include e-sports but there's absolutely no reason to believe "they never really will be", definitions constantly change and adapt over time.

You're cherry-picking sources which define sport in a way that agrees with your view. Here's one that doesn't:

The closest to an international agreement on a definition is provided by SportAccord, which is the association for all the largest international sports federations (including association football, athletics, cycling, tennis, equestrian sports and more), and is therefore the de facto representative of international sport.

SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:

- have an element of competition
- be in no way harmful to any living creature
- not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)
- not rely on any "luck" element specifically designed into the sport

They also recognise that sport can be primarily physical (such as rugby or athletics), primarily mind (such as chess or go), predominantly motorised (such as Formula 1 or powerboating), primarily co-ordination (such as billiard sports), or primarily animal-supported (such as equestrian sport).

Now I could point to that and say "there, the largest international sporting organization in the world defined sports in a way that can include electronic sports" but that requires ignoring the fact that several other organizations (like the ones you cited) define it differently. None of them are objectively in charge of defining the term "sport" so none of them are necessarily more legitimate than the others. There's no way to make a valid argument for or against this topic based entirely on definitions when no definition is universally recognized as the correct one.

So ultimately the only thing you're saying is that those dictionaries define sports in a way that you agree with. That doesn't mean e-sports are absolutely not sports and never will be.

Quote from Externus

People are literally changing the definition of a sport, and acting as if it's subjective.

Because as I said above, definitions do change over time and there is no objective definition of the word sport.

Quote from Externus

Saying E-Sports is a sport is honestly a way to try to sugarcoat the fact that you play games all day.

No, it's an acknowledgement of the massive organization and competitiveness involved in the scene. You want to label the whole thing as "playing games all day" because you look down on it for one reason or another.

This is like saying "saying motorsports is a sport is honestly a way to try to sugarcoat the fact that you drive cars all day", completely ignoring every other strategic and competitive aspect of the sport which might lend weight to the idea that it deserves to be called a sport. If your argument relies on this kind of cherry-picking and appealing to emotion then it's a bullshit one.

Quote from Externus

Many people try to compare playing video games all day to play a sport. Team coaches have boasted about how players on their team practice for more hours than a football player. If people think playing a game for 4 hours is the same as playing football for 4 hours, I denounce them as intellectual human beings and they deserve to feel eternal suffering.

If you think someone saying "my team practices longer hours than football players" is literally the same thing as saying "playing a video game for four hours is exactly the same as playing football for four hours" then you're far from an intellectual human being yourself, those are two completely different statements.

Acknowledging the time and effort put into it by drawing comparisons to real sports is a legitimate argument for people who think it's nothing but fun and games. No one is arguing that football players and professional gamers are somehow equal, except maybe in terms of how much time and dedication they put toward their respective disciplines. Again, something which might legitimize what they do, which you're making an active effort to avoid recognizing.

Quote from Nish

Chess is a recognized sport of the International Olympic Committee and international chess competition is sanctioned by the World Chess Federation (FIDE), which adopted the now-standard Staunton chess set in 1924 for use in all official games.

You literally copied and pasted that from what Google showed you as an answer.

Let's keep Chess = E-Sports at this point, even though they are really far different. If you've watched the DOTA finals, they don't work the same way as a Chess match does. It's much more precise than pretty much any other game out there, to where every single move makes a difference. Regardless, let's say Chess is like E-Sports.

It can be recognized as a sport, but it isn't one literally. It's the same thing as a person saying E-Sports are sports. You can call it one, but it isn't one. That's besides the point anyway. It is generally agreed that it isn't a sport in the same sense of baseball, basketball, football, etc. There is literally close to 0 legitimate reasons for why Chess is a sport. I'll pull up an article saying why Chess is a sport (http://chess.about.com/od/chesshistory/a/Is-Chess-A-Sport.htm).

"While they admit that chess doesn’t fit under the umbrella of athletics, they say that sport is a wider category. There’s tradition for this definition dating back to the ancient Olympics of Greece, where artistic skills and more were grouped under the heading of sports."

This isn't proof for why it's a sport, or even really logical thinking. The definition of sport is pretty set, especially when close to every dictionary universally agrees. Regardless, the Olympics of Ancient Greece pretty much solely featured all modern interpretations of sport. Furthermore, I haven't seen anything on 'artistic skills' being included in Greek sports, nor included in ancient Olympics. Sounds like they made this shit up.

"For those who don’t like that argument or insist on using only the modern definition of a sport, advocates of this side of the debate can point out that athletic prowess may not be required to play chess, but it certainly helps. Modern grandmasters almost universally do what they can to say in shape, as chess players (along with those in other pursuits like poker) have discovered that the mind works better when the body is in shape."

This isn't proof either. This is like claiming playing football is about eating apples because football players eat apples because they're healthy. And furthermore, what do they mean, 'modern definition' of sport? They're the ones modifying the definition of a sport. Giving the benefit of the doubt, this is pulling at straws so thinly. It isn't a necessity to be physically fit and I've read more and more articles from this site and they only continue to say shit like:

"For example, quite recently at the Women’s World Chess Championship tie-breaks were held on the same day as game two of the matches. Some participants had to play all day, with some of the games finishing as late as 2 a.m. Naturally, most players admit that it is more of a test of endurance and willpower than of chess skills."

Chess is not a physical activity, and it doesn't require physical fitness to play. Neither do E-Sports.

I'm honestly going way more in-depth to this than I need to.

E-Sports breaks the definition of what a sport is. It isn't a sport. It has never been a sport.

Quote from Captain Cook

exactly. All the bot has to do to win a CSGO tourney is just to buy a Desert Eagle, patrol the map and hitscan headshot everyone.

Same with League of Legends or whatever. He'll just lock on and hit you always and adjust for your movement to always hit you with perfectly calculated damage.

I'm aware the topic has moved on, this is what I get for not actively checking this section, but while micro decisions are ludicrously easy for a bot, because it has a reaction time of 1 frame, the macro level decisions in League like pressuring the enemy team to open up for your team to achieve something are going to be very difficult to code. I think Valve do a decent job with their Dota bots, but Riot can't make (fair, non buffed versus same character played as a human) bots that are even remotely challenging for decent players because the macro is so difficult to code in.

Quote from Externus

Furthermore, I haven't seen anything on 'artistic skills' being included in Greek sports, nor included in ancient Olympics. Sounds like they made this shit up.

They're probably referring to the Panhellenic Games which the Olympic Games were part of. The Isthmian and Pythian games had musical and theatrical competitions.

Not really sure how that adds any weight to an argument about e-sports though, just thought I'd mention it.

i think video games are games, not sports.

A Sport involves pushing what it means to be human, and pushing the limits of our bodies further than anybody else can. It also introduces fatigue, which necessitates teamwork.

In CSGO I click a dude's head and he dies.

In football, A-Rod's got to watch the line, run from side to side and hit a moving target 30 meters away.

EDIT: I agree with Externus, especially with the RNG element.

Video games have a LOT of RNG elements (spawns, weapon spreads, damage patterns), and the fact that anything in a game can be left up to random chance is complete bullshit.

Quote from Captain Cook

i think video games are games, not sports.

A Sport involves pushing what it means to be human, and pushing the limits of our bodies further than anybody else can. It also introduces fatigue, which necessitates teamwork.

Uh, okay, let's see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8DpVE-E2LM

That's a perfect example of what a top player in a game ends up doing. Quite frankly, I don't think many of us are even physically capable of pulling that off. He's doing at least 10 precise button presses a second. I would happily argue that he's definitely pushing his limits, and that after that he'd definitely be fatigued.

In CSGO I click a dude's head and he dies.

In football, A-Rod's got to watch the line, run from side to side and hit a moving target 30 meters away.

I mean, we can reverse this argument pretty easily.

"In game x, I'm constantly checking everything every two seconds in order to make sure that I don't make that one mistake allowing for this one thing to happen that'll totally screw up the tide of the entire match, and eventually leading to our downfall.

In football, I just run to the other side and we get a touchdown."

It really doesn't work.

EDIT: I agree with Externus, especially with the RNG element.

Video games have a LOT of RNG elements (spawns, weapon spreads, damage patterns), and the fact that anything in a game can be left up to random chance is complete bullshit.

I mean, sure, videogames have RNG elements but so does real life. Weather is a big one, for instance. There's a ton of crap you can't really account for. Sports in general try to minimize these as much as possible in order to ensure fair play.

Quote from Unbounded

I mean, sure, videogames have RNG elements but so does real life. Weather is a big one, for instance. There's a ton of crap you can't really account for. Sports in general try to minimize these as much as possible in order to ensure fair play.

For one, that wasn't the point. I was saying, by that definition that Exile gave, E-Sports are not sports.
But, in games such as football, the ball doesn't spawn in random spots that have inevitably incompetent coding, nor do players have unpredictable conditions. When they throw a ball, there's essentially nothing stopping the player except for himself. However, in E-Sports, games aren't perfect. Programming can't have something for every scenario.

Also, as both someone who games a lot and someone who plays (real B]) sports as well, conditioning your entire body to do a certain action versus training solely your hands is way harder. You have to gain muscle memory for each muscle in your body rather than mastering your fingers and hands. Hand-eye coordination to extremes.

Quote from Externus

For one, that wasn't the point. I was saying, by that definition that Exile gave, E-Sports are not sports.
But, in games such as football, the ball doesn't spawn in random spots that have inevitably incompetent coding, nor do players have unpredictable conditions. When they throw a ball, there's essentially nothing stopping the player except for himself. However, in E-Sports, games aren't perfect. Programming can't have something for every scenario.

Fair enough. I didn't fully read your post to get the context of it.

If we're talking randomness being a huge factor though, Poker is about as random as it can possibly since every time the deck is shuffled it's likely the first time the cards have ever existed in that sequence since the beginning of the universe. That's as random as you can possibly get, yet that is still accepted as a sport. I don't think randomness in any sense can really stop something from being a sport. Can it stop it from being enjoyable from the audience? Probably. But it can still be a sport.

Curiosity question: Would you consider a particular competitive genre of game, (such as fighting game, for example), to be a sport? It covers all the bases. You need muscle memory and extremely good reflexes to keep up, you require a severe amount of mental fortitude in order to actually compete, (mindgames, son.), there is near-zero randomness in the vast majority of them, and it requires ridiculous hours of practice to get to that level. As far as I can tell if you were to look at a game like what Melee or Tekken has evolved into you could definitely see everything coming into play.

Quote from Unbounded

Uh, okay, let's see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8DpVE-E2LM

That's a perfect example of what a top player in a game ends up doing. Quite frankly, I don't think many of us are even physically capable of pulling that off. He's doing at least 10 precise button presses a second. I would happily argue that he's definitely pushing his limits, and that after that he'd definitely be fatigued.

Oh i bet. Tell Messi after 90 minutes of sprinting how tired this SSBM dude is.

flicking your fingers around <<<<<<< Using your entire body, and mind for an hour and a half.

"In game x, I'm constantly checking everything every two seconds in order to make sure that I don't make that one mistake allowing for this one thing to happen that'll totally screw up the tide of the entire match, and eventually leading to our downfall.

In football, I just run to the other side and we get a touchdown."

Yeah, sure you're checking everything every two seconds, but that's entirely mental. That's one element of difficulty.
Again, a QB in football has to be watching at least 6 other players trying to come at him, his runs and his long shots, and land them too.

I mean, sure, videogames have RNG elements but so does real life. Weather is a big one, for instance. There's a ton of crap you can't really account for. Sports in general try to minimize these as much as possible in order to ensure fair play.

Yeah, Weather interferes with how many games?
You seriously can't compare something that happens sometimes to an element that is directly crucial to the game.

Sure, when it rains the teams have to adjust, but the game being played stays the same, because both teams are on a level playing field.

In CSGO I RNG blindfire into a dude with an AK and randomly get the kill because the gun spread just liked me that time.

We win a $10,000 tournament because of RNG.

Quote from Unbounded

Fair enough. I didn't fully read your post to get the context of it.

If we're talking randomness being a huge factor though, Poker is about as random as it can possibly since every time the deck is shuffled it's likely the first time the cards have ever existed in that sequence since the beginning of the universe. That's as random as you can possibly get, yet that is still accepted as a sport. I don't think randomness in any sense can really stop something from being a sport. Can it stop it from being enjoyable from the audience? Probably. But it can still be a sport.

Curiosity question: Would you consider a particular competitive genre of game, (such as fighting game, for example), to be a sport? It covers all the bases. You need muscle memory and extremely good reflexes to keep up, you require a severe amount of mental fortitude in order to actually compete, (mindgames, son.), there is near-zero randomness in the vast majority of them, and it requires ridiculous hours of practice to get to that level. As far as I can tell if you were to look at a game like what Melee or Tekken has evolved into you could definitely see everything coming into play.

Honestly? I'd say DDR is the closest thing to a sport in my opinion, or at least fits the bill the best. It takes an incredible amount of coordination, both mental AND physical stamina, and requires a decent amount of skill.

But, it's hard to say. You're pretty spot on about fighting games' qualifications, but, you may also want to consider that there aren't as many scenarios that a player has to master as opposed to let's say an FPS or an MMO. But, I'd go with fighting games. You did a good job of convincing me.

Quote from Externus

You literally copied and pasted that from what Google showed you as an answer.

Of course, because it is as reliable as it gets. Just because you don't believe it is a sport, it doesn't mean it isn't. I'll post more on this when I go through your points.

Quote from Captain Cook

Oh i bet. Tell Messi after 90 minutes of sprinting how tired this SSBM dude is.

flicking your fingers around <<<<<<< Using your entire body, and mind for an hour and a half.


Yeah, sure you're checking everything every two seconds, but that's entirely mental. That's one element of difficulty.
Again, a QB in football has to be watching at least 6 other players trying to come at him, his runs and his long shots, and land them too.



Yeah, Weather interferes with how many games?
You seriously can't compare something that happens sometimes to an element that is directly crucial to the game.

Sure, when it rains the teams have to adjust, but the game being played stays the same, because both teams are on a level playing field.

In CSGO I RNG blindfire into a dude with an AK and randomly get the kill because the gun spread just liked me that time.

We win a $10,000 tournament because of RNG.

you can't dismiss all possibility of skill being involved purely based on the fact that there are some random variables involved.

Cricket is affected by random variables too like the pitch, which is entirely up to the ground staff to prepare. Small cracks and grass end up affecting entire 5-day long games. As much as Cook might like to diss cricket in the Chat Thread, I don't think anyone can argue in the Debate Thread that it is not a sport.

Quote from Captain Cook

Oh i bet. Tell Messi after 90 minutes of sprinting how tired this SSBM dude is.

flicking your fingers around <<<<<<< Using your entire body, and mind for an hour and a half.

that really isn't the point of demonstrating an example of physical dexterity in gaming. I doubt someone practicing billiards for an hour and a half will be fatigued, it's still a sport. same with motorsports.